Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#41

Post by lifeisstillgood » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:21 AM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #7

tikhonj wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, I currently live in Berkeley. While not quite as expensive as SF, it's pretty close. I also live in one of the somewhat less cheap parts of the city (northside)--my rent is much higher than it could be. On the other hand, I do have a roommate--it all comes back to being young and single (but, again, not frugal).

I'm just gonna throw this out there as a fellow Bay Area person. I like bragging about how bad I have it as much as the next social network self-flaggelator. But our costs aren't even remotely comparable to Zurich's. You need a lot more money to live there, especially if you even semi-regularly go out to eat. It's bad enough that when Swiss people come back through customs from other countries, their trunks are searc…

Well at least no-one tries wrapping an artichoke in a condom and swallowing it to get past customs.

Not even the Swiss German speakers ;-)

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#42

Post by Daniel_Newby » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:21 AM UTC

crygin wrote: post #34

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an appropriate venue for chanting political slogans.

The GP is not a "political slogan", it's a statement of fact. If you'd like to rebut, which seems fairly unlikely, please provide both evidence of sloganhood (slogan, of course, means something specific: in part, that the aforementioned phrase has been used verbatim as a form of promotion. Cite the promotion) and additionally an actual rebuttal to the GP. That would actually be what this is an appropriate venue for,…

Poor Americans receive a wide range of subsidies, which have broad popular support. Obamacare is being fought because it is a byzantine bureaucratic tar pit written in secrecy by industries lobbyists and passed by the worst sort of political manipulations. If someone could manage to put forward a sensible national health system, including the necessary constitutional amendment, it would get a landslide victory.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#43

Post by md224 » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:23 AM UTC

wavesounds wrote: post #31

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an appropriate venue for chanting political slogans.

I stated a 100% true fact that is a direct comparison to the article in question. It's sad people would try to silence facts by dismissing them as 'political slogans'

I think it's political because it reduces the debate over healthcare policy to a caricature. I lean left (hell, I voted for the Green Party in the last presidential election) but even I don't believe that every Republican is twirling their moustache and cackling "bwah ha ha, I love oppressing the poor."

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#44

Post by psuter » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:23 AM UTC

pyritschard wrote: post #35

I think it's worth explaining how swiss legislation works. There are several ways to propose a new law, one of which is for enough citizens to petition, which leads to a referendum style vote. The basic income vote followed this process, and though it gathered enough interest to warrant people voting on it, it has little chance of passing. Interestingly a similar vote recently passed which limited the income in a com…

The 1:12 project is at the same stage as the basic income one: up for referendum. Latest polls showed people were still undecided (vote is at the end of November).

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#45

Post by CrankyPants » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:25 AM UTC

wavesounds wrote: post #31

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an appropriate venue for chanting political slogans.

I stated a 100% true fact that is a direct comparison to the article in question. It's sad people would try to silence facts by dismissing them as 'political slogans'

Meh, it's your view. There are plenty of people who oppose PPACA for reasons besides trying to stop poor people from receiving subsidies on their health insurance.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#46

Post by mkuhn » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:27 AM UTC

ashray wrote: post #4

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Just bear in mind for your calculations that in Switzerland a cup of coffee often costs $6 as does a can of coke. Cost of living is extremely high. But still, this does look like a decent deal. Zurich is like San Francisco in terms of expenses.

Cost of living is indeed bad but nowhere nearly as bad as you portray it. While food and rent is really expensive compared to the surrounding countries other things (e.g. Gasoline, Electronics) are cheaper.

Also the high prices often also have a quality bias with the Swiss normally buying higher quality. An example of this is discounters such as Aldi or Lidl having a small market share even though they offer fresh products (which they do to a much lesser extent in other countries).

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#47

Post by Kiro » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:27 AM UTC

Wouldn't basic income just lead to higher prices and inflation?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#48

Post by CrankyPants » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:27 AM UTC

crygin wrote: post #34

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an appropriate venue for chanting political slogans.

The GP is not a "political slogan", it's a statement of fact. If you'd like to rebut, which seems fairly unlikely, please provide both evidence of sloganhood (slogan, of course, means something specific: in part, that the aforementioned phrase has been used verbatim as a form of promotion. Cite the promotion) and additionally an actual rebuttal to the GP. That would actually be what this is an appropriate venue for,…

It's a post heavily implying that motives for opposing the PPACA–also known as Obamacare–have to do with wanting to harm poor people.

That's highly political, quite partisan, and well-beneath the standard to which we should hold each other, regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree with his stated politics.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#49

Post by zalew » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:29 AM UTC

ddoolin wrote: post #22

ojii wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we Swiss have this weird habit of voting against things that look like they would be a benefit for us (in the short term). I voted against more paid holidays as I think 4 weeks (minimum) is enough and forcing everyone to raise it to 5 would hurt the economy. Similarly I'd vote against this proposed bill if I still lived in Switzerland as I don't see how it could work, despite it being generally an intriguing idea…

Now I'm curious about the possibility of immigrating to Switzerland... Ha. Sort of seriously.

Just keep in mind you may get a fine for taking a shower late in the evening. And that you most friendly neighbor will turn into a snitch after any violation of yours, especially since you're an auslander. I mean, Switzerland is a lovely country, but some laws regarding cohabitation around there are really anal. On the flipside, whenever my neighbor starts mowning his damn lawn when I'm healing my hangover on sunday, I wish I was there. Grass is greener on the other side. In general, it's a gorgeous country.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#50

Post by rodgerd » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:30 AM UTC

ojii wrote: post #40

JDDunn9 wrote: post #36

A country that values science, education, peace AND cares about the poor! Have I stepped into another dimension?

You forgot democracy. Note that this bill was introduced by the people, not the government. In Switzerland, as long as you can get 100'000 to sign a referendum, you can get a bill to be voted on. We also vote 4 times a year on bills, that is we the people, not we the politicians.

And in 1990 women could even vote!