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Steam Controller

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Re: Steam Controller

#351

Post by hrkristian »

dragonwriter wrote: post #288
ProblemFactory wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major difference between a mouse and a controller stick is the type of input. Mouse is a pointing input - for a movement of 1 unit, your view changes by 1 unit. If you stop moving the mouse, your view stops moving. Controller stick is a velocity input - for a movement of 1 unit, your view starts moving at a speed of 1 unit. If you bring the stick back to center, your view stops moving. It could be that the Steam…

There's no reason you can't use a mouse a velocity input and a stick as a position input; either one is returning a value in a two-dimensional space -- treating that value as "position" or "velocity" is a matter of what the receiving software does with the input, not the input itself. Joystick calibration utilities, for instance, tend to take stick position as a position input, and ISTR a number of PC sims that prefe…

That is hardly relevant, using a stick as position input would give you, what, five units of movement on either axis?

Re: Steam Controller

#352

Post by hrkristian »

dragonwriter wrote: post #288
ProblemFactory wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major difference between a mouse and a controller stick is the type of input. Mouse is a pointing input - for a movement of 1 unit, your view changes by 1 unit. If you stop moving the mouse, your view stops moving. Controller stick is a velocity input - for a movement of 1 unit, your view starts moving at a speed of 1 unit. If you bring the stick back to center, your view stops moving. It could be that the Steam…

There's no reason you can't use a mouse a velocity input and a stick as a position input; either one is returning a value in a two-dimensional space -- treating that value as "position" or "velocity" is a matter of what the receiving software does with the input, not the input itself. Joystick calibration utilities, for instance, tend to take stick position as a position input, and ISTR a number of PC sims that prefe…

That is hardly relevant, using a stick as position input would give you, what, five units of movement on either axis?

Re: Steam Controller

#353

Post by zero_intp »

hayksaakian wrote: post #239
anonymous wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how my right thumb could be as precise as moving the mouse, which I do with all 5 of my fingers (for tiny movements) or from my shoulder (for larger movements). If thumb touchpads were good for FPS games, how come nobody is playing them with their thumb on their laptop's touchpad? Maybe I'm just old, but I don't see myself ever being able to use this.

Long time users of trackball mice will disagree with you http://mobile.logitech.com/en-us/mice-pointers/trackballs

I used a Logitech Trackball for more than a decade due to De Quervain syndrome. My specific experience in this topic is that the TB allows for high speed macro motions (RTS control), often easier/faster than a mouse; but for high speed precision (headshots), the mouse wins every time.

Re: Steam Controller

#354

Post by dragonwriter »

hrkristian wrote: post #351
dragonwriter wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason you can't use a mouse a velocity input and a stick as a position input; either one is returning a value in a two-dimensional space -- treating that value as "position" or "velocity" is a matter of what the receiving software does with the input, not the input itself. Joystick calibration utilities, for instance, tend to take stick position as a position input, and ISTR a number of PC sims that prefe…

That is hardly relevant, using a stick as position input would give you, what, five units of movement on either axis?

> That is hardly relevant, using a stick as position input would give you, what, five units of movement on either axis?

From what I can find online, the PS3 controller is 10-bit per axis (1024 positions on either axis), the Xbox 360 is either 8-bit (256 positions) or 16-bit (64k positions.)

A 25-way joystick of the type you describe wouldn't be usable for most console games, whether as a position or velocity input.

Re: Steam Controller

#355

Post by QuiteMouse »

I still have doubts about this controller being worthwhile but Valve has never led me astray before. I am willing to reserve judgement. Steam needs to release Source Engine 2 with multi-platform support baked in before they can ever hope to make a dent in the console market with living room gaming though.

Re: Steam Controller

#356

Post by phaus »

jamesgeck0 wrote: post #316
phaus wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree that trackballs suck for FPS games, but most pro FPS players advocate keeping the mouse at a fairly low DPI, so that deficiency isn't really the problem. I have trouble believing that any device that relies on thumb-only input is going to be anywhere near as good as a mouse, but I hope I'm proven wrong.

Trackballs really aren't _that_ terrible for precision in FPS. Not pro level, but heckuva lot better than the joystick control consoles currently use. I found I had a harder time in StarCraft than I did in UT2K4, but both were quite playable. I used a Logitech Trackman for seven years, and the biggest issue was that the force required to move the ball around wasn't constant; it would vary depending on how gunked up t…

If a person prefers using a trackball, that's great, but when the same tools used by the pros costs about $50, there isn't really any other reason to use anything else.

Re: Steam Controller

#357

Post by PhasmaFelis »

TsiCClawOfLight wrote: post #337
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm looking for the original study I saw. I haven't found it yet, but here's one that found that trackballs were superior to thumbsticks, even for users familiar with gamepads and not trackballs (hardly a revelation, certainly, but you'd be surprised how many people contest it): http://www.yorku.ca/mack/FuturePlay1.html But come now, my original statement was hardly all that bold. Obviously the reason that gamepad ai…

There is a large difference between CoD and CS. That's what you would have to convince me with... that or SC.

I'm pretty sure CoD and CS both involve aiming a crosshairs. That's the only thing that's really relevant to this discussion.

As for Starcraft, you're right, it wouldn't work; not because of the pointing device, but because a gamepad doesn't have enough buttons to manage all the hotkeys. In my original post, I called out FPSes specifically for that reason.

Re: Steam Controller

#358

Post by sejje »

chasing wrote: post #21

Interesting. Game controllers are a fascinating user experience design challenge. While Playstation and Xbox controllers are fairly well-polished functional workhorses, I appreciate companies (like Nintendo and, now, Valve) pushing the envelope. More than even the games (which, I suspect, will also mostly be available on other consoles or PCs), this intrigues me enough to want to get a Steam Machine. (Still, though -…

Hell, I want to get one to use with my PC.

Re: Steam Controller

#359

Post by wnevets »

nekopa wrote: post #329
jlgreco wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really think that the mouse which was invented in the 60s (mother of all demos) is the pinnacle of technology regarding input? The joystick was invented in 1908, but it is still in fighter jets today, isn't it? Who gives a shit how old it is?

Ok, you all misunderstood what I was trying to say, which means I said it badly. What I was hinting at is that though the mouse is currently the best form of input for a lot of games (ANSI the reason why I don't have a console, I don't like gaming without a mouse), does that mean we should stop trying to find other forms of input device? I didn't mean the age statement negatively, just to point out we've had this tec…

I wasn't suggesting that we stop trying to come up with new tech. In fact I'm quite interested in what valve is trying to do. Despite not even trying it I think their track-pad controller will be better than analog stick controllers.

When I said track > analog sticks I didn't mean laptop track pads but valve's. However not even valve is suggesting its better than the mouse for games like counter-strike or dota2

Re: Steam Controller

#360

Post by sliverstorm »

w1ntermute wrote: post #308
sliverstorm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trackpoint is great, but I've been trying to move away from its use. I've found after frequent use, my finger tip gets irritated- I suspect mechanics similar to the development of a blister are at play- and they haven't been good for my hand overall. I've forced myself to use trackpads and mice now, because they are much lower impact on my hand. I can keep my hand completely relaxed when using a trackpad.

Have you tried changing the cap? I exclusively use the concave "soft rim" cap ( http://support.lenovo.com/ContentResources/Migrated%20Assets... ).

It helped, but did not solve.
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