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Steam Controller

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Re: Steam Controller

#301

Post by mietek »

skorgu wrote: post #251
mbrubeck wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a typical keyboard+mouse FPS game, for example, you get 2D analog "look" controls with the mouse, but much more limited 2D "move" controls with the keyboard. With two analog sticks/trackpads/mice/etc. you can get the same range of control over both. That's what the two "planes" give you.

To expand on this: In most FPSes your move commands are binary, "W" or nothing. You can alter them a bit with combinations, Shift-W to sprint or perhaps Ctrl-W to crawl but you're still limited to a handful of preset speeds. I could easily imagine being able to use a continuous axis to encapsulate walk/jog/sprint being quite a bit more intuitive and precise.

Splinter Cell did this to great effect, with the scroll wheel used to smoothly progress between creeping/walking/jogging/sprinting.

Re: Steam Controller

#302

Post by imancit »

sbarre wrote: post #242
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. I suppose my "complaint" is that they could do a better job of bridging the gap, but perhaps I am wrong. You do make a good point that the mouse+kb may be too cumbersome for some (most?) consoler switchers. I do wish that I could see what sort of solution Valve could come up with if forced to keep the primary mouse+kb, though. Some sort of streamlined solution which you partly imagine in your post.

A few friends and I once had imagined a keyboard with an attached mousepad and a mouse that was magnetically (or otherwise) attached to the pad, that prevented from falling off, so that you could rest it on your lap while sitting on the couch. I always wondered if something like that would be possible.. So you'd have all your precision mouse movement without the akward balancing of loose things while sitting on the c…

This was the planned input peripheral for the ill-fated "Phantom" gaming console.

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2007/12/phantom-keyboar/

Aaaand looks like the keyboard actually made it to market, there's even one on ebay. I had no idea.

Re: Steam Controller

#303

Post by vegardx »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #278
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For Valve to bring PC gaming to your TV/Couch, they really needed to nail the interface. I don't understand the problem with traditional mouse+kb for couch gaming. I've been using it for years and haven't encountered any drawbacks (using wireless mouse+kb combo). Am able to play online FPS and RTS, both of which require extreme precision and extreme low latency, at very high levels. You use a solid mousemat, place…

"No one has ever been able to match the precision and control of mouse+kb" Someone did some tests a while back with a gamepad-trackball (trackball replacing the right thumbstick). They found that pro PC FPS gamers did just as well with it as with mouse+keyboard, after a short adjustment period. Here's some quotes from the most recent attempt (out of three that I know of) to crowdfund one of those ( http://www.kicksta…

When you make bold statements you generally have to back it up with some evidence. I find it really hard to believe that anyone has the level off accuracy and speed that you get from a good keyboard/mouse combo.

It is a reason that console games come with built in auto aim on all FPS shooters...

Re: Steam Controller

#304

Post by nnash »

anonymous wrote: post #234
paulgerhardt wrote: post #170

I got to hold one of these a few months ago. It's solid. The ergonomics are there. The same designer[1] was previously at {one of the other three very large gaming console manufacturers} and knows a thing or two about controllers. My understanding is it will be significantly more accurate than traditional joysticks and competitive with a mouse (with a mouse you have a single 'large' plane of motion, with this, you ha…

I don't see how my right thumb could be as precise as moving the mouse, which I do with all 5 of my fingers (for tiny movements) or from my shoulder (for larger movements). If thumb touchpads were good for FPS games, how come nobody is playing them with their thumb on their laptop's touchpad? Maybe I'm just old, but I don't see myself ever being able to use this.

>I don't see how my right thumb could be as precise as moving the mouse

It's a controller, it will never be as precise as a mouse. Trust me when this thing comes out people will be complaining about how they're suddenly losing every game of TF2.

Re: Steam Controller

#305

Post by btbuildem »

anonymous wrote: post #234
paulgerhardt wrote: post #170

I got to hold one of these a few months ago. It's solid. The ergonomics are there. The same designer[1] was previously at {one of the other three very large gaming console manufacturers} and knows a thing or two about controllers. My understanding is it will be significantly more accurate than traditional joysticks and competitive with a mouse (with a mouse you have a single 'large' plane of motion, with this, you ha…

I don't see how my right thumb could be as precise as moving the mouse, which I do with all 5 of my fingers (for tiny movements) or from my shoulder (for larger movements). If thumb touchpads were good for FPS games, how come nobody is playing them with their thumb on their laptop's touchpad? Maybe I'm just old, but I don't see myself ever being able to use this.

Imagine one thumb being 1x, the other 10x - then you could dial in precision and speed at the same time.

Re: Steam Controller

#306

Post by bentcorner »

foobarian wrote: post #289
bentcorner wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how come nobody is playing them with their thumb on their laptop's touchpad? Touchpads (and mice) don't work like thumbsticks. Touchpads/mice measure a vector with the size equal to distance traveled. Thumbsticks measure a vector with a size equal to the deflection from center. Thumbsticks are terrible for mousing tasks (e.g., moving a virtual cursor [rts games]), and mice/touchpads are terrible for thumbstick task…

Actually raw touchpad output does work like that, it's just adapted to drive a mouse cursor. Imagine a touchpad mode where the position of the mouse cursor on screen gets mapped to the position of the finger on the pad.

True enough, my (uninformed) guess is that for this to work it would have to be on the level of the touchpad driver.

Re: Steam Controller

#307

Post by nslamberth »

laeus wrote: post #255
paulgerhardt wrote: post #170

I got to hold one of these a few months ago. It's solid. The ergonomics are there. The same designer[1] was previously at {one of the other three very large gaming console manufacturers} and knows a thing or two about controllers. My understanding is it will be significantly more accurate than traditional joysticks and competitive with a mouse (with a mouse you have a single 'large' plane of motion, with this, you ha…

I got a chance to try this out with a first-person shooter. I was not very happy with it. It felt worse than mouse+keyboard and simultaneously worse than dual-analog gamepads. Everybody in the room had issues calibrating and re-centering themselves. I'm sure it gets better with more use, but that's just the problem: it fails a fundamental usability test, because the initial experience of using it is pretty awful and…

Out of curiosity, was the haptic tech in the build you tried out?

Keeping thumbs oriented seems to be the biggest challenge of a controller like this, but I as hoping the haptic feedback would help keep your thumbs in place.

Re: Steam Controller

#308

Post by w1ntermute »

sliverstorm wrote: post #165
w1ntermute wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had several ThinkPads, and I've always disabled the trackpad in the BIOS as soon as I got a new one - it's totally unnecessary when you have the TrackPoint. It's so much faster and more precise. Like amalcon said, I have no idea how anyone can use a trackpad. Whenever I watch a friend use one, or use one myself, it's like the mouse is moving in slow motion compared to me using the TrackPoint. It does take some p…

Trackpoint is great, but I've been trying to move away from its use. I've found after frequent use, my finger tip gets irritated- I suspect mechanics similar to the development of a blister are at play- and they haven't been good for my hand overall. I've forced myself to use trackpads and mice now, because they are much lower impact on my hand. I can keep my hand completely relaxed when using a trackpad.

Have you tried changing the cap? I exclusively use the concave "soft rim" cap (http://support.lenovo.com/ContentResources/Migrated%20Assets...).

Re: Steam Controller

#309

Post by w1ntermute »

kcbanner wrote: post #300
ioquatix wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's trackpads aren't low precision and high latency.

Heh, have you tried playing an FPS on a mac, with its awful mouse acceleration?

This has been my biggest frustration with Macs. I've never been able to get used to the weird mouse acceleration curve. Using a non-Apple mouse usually makes things a little better, but it's still just not right. I even tried installing a 3rd party tool once to fix the issue, but it didn't help much.

Re: Steam Controller

#310

Post by eatfish »

kcbanner wrote: post #300
ioquatix wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's trackpads aren't low precision and high latency.

Heh, have you tried playing an FPS on a mac, with its awful mouse acceleration?

Yes, played entire Portal/Portal2 on it. It was fine. Maybe you should be railing at game developers that port to the Mac but then don’t update their acceleration curves to fit the platform. That’s the problem, when games are developed on Windows with the Windows mouse curve and then never adjusted on the Mac port.
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