To my daughter's high school programming teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#361

Post by vacri » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:25 PM UTC

madaxe wrote: post #293

cookiecaper wrote: post #15

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

Child gets bullied (shock horror), mother assumes it's sexism (it ain't, it's bullying. I'm a dude. Got bullied at high school. Does that make my tormentors homosexual autosexists?), rants. I'm so bored of this sort of thing. Yes, there are man-children who post stupid and hurtful crap on the internet. Yes, there are cretins who make dick jokes on stage at conferences. There are also women who are complete and utter…

Two things stood out in particular: Bullying and sexism can coexist and feed off each other; and 'all men are rapists' feminists are actually extremely rare - far, far rarer than the 'man-children' you reference.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#362

Post by bcbroom » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:29 PM UTC

numo16 wrote: post #151

yeukhon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does he get through the course certification? Shouldn't he has to demonstrate he has the qualification to teach CS class? Is this a high school from a small town? I'd imagine in NYC this could mean firing the school's principal if New York Daily finds out.

From what I understand (gf just finished her education degree, michigan secondary ed), there isn't really a teachers certification for computer programming/CS classes in secondary. It is generally taught by someone who shows interest in teaching it AND if there is an opening for the class in the schedule AND if there is a budget to allow that elective AND it doesn't get in the way of whatever the school's administrat…

Its not just a prep issue (and yes, there are only a handful of CS Education programs in the US) but a state certification and curriculum issue. Education in the US is a State/local funded and regulated (only like 10% of public school funding is from the Federal Government). Teaching requirements for CS vary wildly from state to state, but in most places CS courses actually fall in the Business dept.

The course most likely used VB because that is what the district mandated.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#363

Post by lotsofcows » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:31 PM UTC

madaxe wrote: post #348

lotsofcows wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment boils down to, "It was this way for me. Life's tough. Suck it up." How can a situation where a child enters a classroom full of enthusiasm and leaves a year (term?) later depressed not be an "actual issue"?

Either you have serious reading comprehension issues, or you make a habit of deliberately misconstruing others statements - or you're a troll, and I'm stupidly feeding you. I am saying that it IS an issue, but that the issue is not one of gender discrimination, just one of kids, and humans, being dicks - and you can't combat it purely on gender lines as all you're doing is treating a symptom rather than the disease.

The problem in and of itself is a valid problem that can be worked on. By lots of small, manageable efforts we can make the world a better place. Abstracting problems away - making them more generalised - only turns manageable problems into philosophical debates.

Btw, you need to get away from the habit of directly attacking the author and focus instead on attacking the argument.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#364

Post by WoodenChair » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:32 PM UTC

EdgarVerona wrote: post #294

javert wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school from 2001 to 2005, and there wasn't any programming course. This was in the small-town US. Any form of VB is still computer programming, and would have been a big step up. > The state of HS education in this country makes me sad. Yes, and that is not going to change unless we privatize education.

> Yes, and that is not going to change unless we privatize education. Or start paying higher taxes so that public education is given the funding they need to implement these programs.

We spend the fourth most per pupil of any country in the world: http://www.businessinsider.com/us-education-spending-compare... Money is not the answer - in fact some of the states that spend the most, have the worst results.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#365

Post by nsfyn55 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

daxelrod wrote: post #158

nsfyn55 wrote: post #50

My experience in the professional world is that its full of assertive, aggressive individuals men and women included. There are only so many slots at the top and the ones not occupied by the CEO's nephew belong to thick skinned individuals who have endured a careers worth of mental/emotional abuse. How many times have your heard someone utter the words "My boss/colleague/lead is an idiot." Is it a disservice to creat…

I understand that you're advocating for helping people develop a thick skin. Where I take objection is when you start talking about abuse. There's enough other kinds of adversity out there to be resilient against. > My experience in the professional world is that its full of assertive, aggressive individuals men and women included. It's possible to be assertive and aggressive without being abusive. > There are only s…

Obviously I use the term "abuse" facetiously. However, no one buys the memiore about the individual that coasted into prosperity with the love and support of everyone around them.

> Not everyone wants to get to the "top" sure, but how about you let them make that decision rather than taking the liberty of handicapping them in advance.

>They certainly sound better than environments full of mental/emotional abuse. Why can't we create abuse-free environments in the real world, too?

Sure but they will need to compete against the environments filled with vicious, agogi-bred cutthroats who are there by choice.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#366

Post by astrogirl » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:34 PM UTC

I've been a programmer/analyst for 17 years, and I have never experienced anything like what's being discussed by these women. I am older than they are (I'm a Gen-Xer), but still.

I've worked in web development shops, and I currently work for a regional grocery store chain, but most of my time was spent working for companies that own an internet backbone doing statistical reporting for the web. I can assure you, those places were heavily male and heavily geeky. No one ever suggests that I should be getting them coffee, much less making them a sandwich.

If anything, the younger, nerdier guys find me a little intimidating.

I wonder if some of the women in question are simply getting their ass handed to them in a code review and they think it's sexism. It's the opposite, actually. That's equal treatment!

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#367

Post by kingpin393 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:37 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #15

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

She went off on some tangent about comments on an article she wrote - what the hell does that have to do with her daughter's computer programming class?

This was a rant about the mother's issues directed at a seemingly innocent teacher.

This article disgusted me.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#368

Post by astrogirl » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:39 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

So, you're saying that women need special treatment as the more delicately nurtured sex? I completely disagree. The tech environment is what it is, and I don't want to be treated differently than my male co-workers.

Also, I've never seen anything resembling a "grotesque pastiche of misogyny and bullying" in my 17 years of working as a programmer or systems analyst.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#369

Post by madaxe » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:41 PM UTC

lotsofcows wrote: post #363

madaxe wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you have serious reading comprehension issues, or you make a habit of deliberately misconstruing others statements - or you're a troll, and I'm stupidly feeding you. I am saying that it IS an issue, but that the issue is not one of gender discrimination, just one of kids, and humans, being dicks - and you can't combat it purely on gender lines as all you're doing is treating a symptom rather than the disease.

The problem in and of itself is a valid problem that can be worked on. By lots of small, manageable efforts we can make the world a better place. Abstracting problems away - making them more generalised - only turns manageable problems into philosophical debates. Btw, you need to get away from the habit of directly attacking the author and focus instead on attacking the argument.

Oh, pot, kettle! C'mon already.

You're right that by abstracting things away you can just create a philosophical point with no path to resolution, but you can also actively inflict harm by tackling an issue in isolation without evaluating and understanding the root cause.

This is the same philosophy (general problem, specific problem within that general problem that we think we can act on, so act, without looking at the general problem) that lead to rampant mercury poisoning and insanity across the globe in the late 19th c., as a poultice of mercury nicely clears up the sores from syphilis - but does not cure syphilis.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#370

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:49 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #361

madaxe wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Child gets bullied (shock horror), mother assumes it's sexism (it ain't, it's bullying. I'm a dude. Got bullied at high school. Does that make my tormentors homosexual autosexists?), rants. I'm so bored of this sort of thing. Yes, there are man-children who post stupid and hurtful crap on the internet. Yes, there are cretins who make dick jokes on stage at conferences. There are also women who are complete and utter…

Two things stood out in particular: Bullying and sexism can coexist and feed off each other; and 'all men are rapists' feminists are actually extremely rare - far, far rarer than the 'man-children' you reference.

[deleted]