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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#91

Post by ewoodrich »

auctiontheory wrote: post #31

Yes, I think we should all be vaccinated, as the powers that be confidently tell us. And as a consumer of medicine, I observe that doctors are equally confident when they really don't know what they're talking about, and when their opinions aren't substantiated by science. (The command to wear padded running shoes, for instance.) And I know that the CIA organized a fake "vaccination drive" to get Osama bin Laden. So…

So as to not provide any more baseless evidence against vaccines under the guise of impartial reasoning, the CIA led vaccination drive actually did provide vaccines in a poorly developed region, but the data collected led to the capture of Bin Laden.

In and of itself, the vaccination drive wasn't some sort of hoax, and it had legitimate doctors and results. It had just been co-opted by the CIA for covert intelligence gathering.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#92

Post by jasonlotito »

Patrick_Devine wrote: post #17
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have valid, replicatable evidence where vaccines cause harm, I'm all ears. But if you're going to rely on anecdotal evidence, GTFO. I'm tired of hearing people not vaccinating their children and causing public health issues because they believe they're more informed than the CDC.

Here's an example where vaccines cause harm: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/09... By and large though, vaccines are amazing. Just the fact that we have a vaccine which can protect against influenza is pretty fantastic. Life unfortunately always throws you spanners, so even though I think the people who live in the vaccine autism universe are bat shit crazy, it's still good to have people ta…

Both sides of the issue with evidence. Yours is the first I've read here. Most people, most discussions involving vaccinations don't come close to sensibility.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#93

Post by jlgreco »

raphinou wrote: post #74
jlgreco wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccines save lives. Millions of lives. Pro-vaccine is not an extreme position, it is the sane position. I downvoted you because I think you are presenting a false compromise. An "argument to moderation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

A lack of moderated opinions is hurting a lot these days. Read my answer to dalke, because I would like ask you the same question: Would you be for mandating vaccines against rota-viruses in high-income countries?

I don't have the expertise to make that call, and neither I suspect do you. I am comfortable with the CDC making that call.

Moderated positions should not be your priority. Rather factually correct and defensible positions should be.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#94

Post by jlgreco »

rentAchop wrote: post #73
jlgreco wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, those are "big" (as in, serious, though rare; or serious, but doesn't fucking happen...) but do you know what is bigger? Somebody who could not get immunized dying because you refused to get immunized. That is why it is selfish. Incredibly selfish.

If one was forced to immunize their child, that child then dies from a reaction to that vaccine. Is that the "unselfish" act? You might of well have said it's against your "morals". Your full of it, might as well say we should cull the autistic kids from the herd, you know to protect the herd.

Vaccines save millions of live. If, in your personal system of morality, the veeery slight chance that your child will die takes priority over the benefit vaccines present to society, then while you are entitled to that viewpoint, I have the right to call you a selfish monster who embodies much that is wrong with modern society.

Furthermore, neither autistic kids nor eugenics have fuck all to do with vaccinations. Quit peddling this bullshit.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#95

Post by joshuahedlund »

sitharus wrote: post #16

I've had the fun experience of debating with anti-vaccine people. Outside of the religious 'god will protect us' line, which I can't really argue with as it's a matter of faith, the vaccines cause autism line keeps coming up. Unfortunately for us a condition that we don't really understand is far more prevalent than the side-effects of preventable diseases. I've never met anyone who's experienced post-polio syndrome…

Why would God protect from the measles but not the autism? (And I say this as a Christian who believes in healing) Yet while 'vaccine denialism' is often associated with the Religious Right, it's certainly not a prerequisite, because you can certainly find the same sentiments among the all-natural anti-GMO fringe Left, and before we had stories about Texas mega churches we had stories about affluent Californians[1]

[1]http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/08/26/vaccine-exempti...

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#96

Post by lovemenot »

contingencies wrote: post #85
ghshephard wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccines do the precise opposite of what you just wrote - they expose you to huge numbers of viral particles ramping up your immune system so a state of enhanced immunity performance. When you travel to foreign countries, you tend to take a number of vaccines just so that your body is ready to fight off the endemic diseases that are prevalent in the region you are traveling to.

Vaccines do the precise opposite of what you just wrote... Yes, but only for one specific disease.

I believe your parent was arguing that vaccines facilitate travel and that globalisation is anathema to monoculture. So vaccines indirectly attack the monoculture which you both think is a risk to our civilisation.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#97

Post by up_and_up »

venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

> I have also never seen a case of autism.

Not sure where you live.

There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease where I live in the midwest. We have 3 large organizations that only work with Autistic kids.

My wife and I have 3 kids and vaccinate them selectively on our own schedule. We vaccinate our kids for the same things that we received as children, nothing more and nothing less.

> The stuff we vaccinate against is not harmless.

Our medical system wants to vaccinate for everything now, chicken pox etc.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#98

Post by nl »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #95
sitharus wrote: post #16

I've had the fun experience of debating with anti-vaccine people. Outside of the religious 'god will protect us' line, which I can't really argue with as it's a matter of faith, the vaccines cause autism line keeps coming up. Unfortunately for us a condition that we don't really understand is far more prevalent than the side-effects of preventable diseases. I've never met anyone who's experienced post-polio syndrome…

Why would God protect from the measles but not the autism? (And I say this as a Christian who believes in healing) Yet while 'vaccine denialism' is often associated with the Religious Right, it's certainly not a prerequisite, because you can certainly find the same sentiments among the all-natural anti-GMO fringe Left, and before we had stories about Texas mega churches we had stories about affluent Californians[1] […

Why would God protect from the measles but not the autism?

That's a wonderful line.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#99

Post by route66 »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #89
altero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The medical industry would make more money There is strong competition in medical industry. One company sells vaccine, some others sells medicine and hospital equipment.

In theory maybe. The data suggests that the same companies are providing vaccines and drugs. Competition in the US Health System certainly doesn't do a good enough job at driving costs down... I don't like to use these strong words, but I do find it dangerous and reckless when people with nearly no medical knowledge want to reason against proven methods on the basis of costs and the hatred of "evil, profit seeking co…

I don't believe what I'm reading here: You suggest that the medical industry is more or less a monopoly / oligopoly with lack of competition and at he same time barf at people dependent on that system to keep out of the discussion? Maybe you (or I) missed a sarcasm tag ... Otherwise it might be the place to remind you that the medical industry does not operate on a free market because sick people mostly don't have much to choose from. I cannot imagine why the profit seeking aspect of that industry should not be questuined and/or observed?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#100

Post by ameister14 »

oceanstone wrote: post #11
rbourke wrote: post #9

The effectiveness of vaccines rely on 'herd immunity', that is: you need more than 90% of a population immunised to stop a disease spreading (as vaccines are never 100% effective)(also varies according to vaccine types/adjuvants and disease contagiousness) So by not vaccinating your self/dependents you are actually extremely selfish as you are benefiting from herd immunity whilst at the same time avoiding the (small)…

From my research, people who avoid vaccines are usually afraid of (big) side reactions, like infertility or autism.

Yep, which would be valid except there is no scientific basis for those.
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