Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 232 posts

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#71

Post by dalke »

altero wrote: post #30
bayesianhorse wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing some of the details on vaccination, I can't agree. There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. Competition is usually harder. I wouldn't call the bird/pig flu story hype. There was a wide consensus that these viruses were a threat and might have the potential for a pandemic. It killed a lot of people, and as far as I remember it had a higher mortality rate than…

> There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. But there is also good chance to convince government to buy huge quantities. Flu kills and becomes pandemic nearly every year. Bird/pig flu was just a bad year. There are more effective measures to fight flu. For example closing schools for couple of weeks. Also employers should allow tele-commuting during flu seasons.

Nah, that's a poor argument. The medical industry would make more money if they let the people get sick so they need to be hospitalized for weeks or even, in the case of some polio victims, need to be in an iron lung for the rest of their lives.

(In Ontario, for example, a cost-benefit analysis shows that a universal free influenza inoculation program reduces costs of the medical system; see http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj... .)

I can turn the argument around: companies don't want people to get vaccinated so they can sell more expensive palliative care. Why would a hospital want to get less business if more people are vaccinated and so don't need their services?

If a given argument predicts X and it predicts not-X, then it's a poor argument. This appeal to the profit motive is a poor argument.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#72

Post by raphinou »

dalke wrote: post #64
raphinou wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand the downvotes here,especially with no argumentation. It only illustrates my opinion: people have too extreme opinion on the subject. I maintain that being unconditionally pro or anti vaccines is a bad approach.

You have made an implication, without basis, that the immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro." This is not the case. Read any of the CDC, NIH, or WHO history of vaccinations and you'll see the reasons for the decisions. You'll see the numbers of how much it costs to vaccinate, how much it costs to treat, the likelihood of disease, the likel…

> You have made an implication, without basis, that the > immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", > or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro."

You have interpreted this. Read my comment without considering me as anti-vaccines and maybe you'll understand you over-reacted....

My reflection was about pushing administration of vaccines against for example stomach ulcers (vaccine in development) or rotaviruses in developed countries. Would you be for mandating, in high-income countries, the administration of a vaccine against rotaviruses knowing their efficiency is only 45%? Rotavirus is evaluated at 1% of children deaths in these countries [1] (from CDC, a source you mention yourself). Will you also push for a vaccine for the 99 other percent?

[1] http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/9/5/02-0562_article.htm

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#73

Post by rentAchop »

jlgreco wrote: post #28
oceanstone wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my research, people who avoid vaccines are usually afraid of (big) side reactions, like infertility or autism.

Oh, those are "big" (as in, serious, though rare; or serious, but doesn't fucking happen...) but do you know what is bigger? Somebody who could not get immunized dying because you refused to get immunized. That is why it is selfish. Incredibly selfish.

If one was forced to immunize their child, that child then dies from a reaction to that vaccine. Is that the "unselfish" act? You might of well have said it's against your "morals". Your full of it, might as well say we should cull the autistic kids from the herd, you know to protect the herd.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#74

Post by raphinou »

jlgreco wrote: post #47
raphinou wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand the downvotes here,especially with no argumentation. It only illustrates my opinion: people have too extreme opinion on the subject. I maintain that being unconditionally pro or anti vaccines is a bad approach.

Vaccines save lives. Millions of lives. Pro-vaccine is not an extreme position, it is the sane position. I downvoted you because I think you are presenting a false compromise. An "argument to moderation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

A lack of moderated opinions is hurting a lot these days. Read my answer to dalke, because I would like ask you the same question: Would you be for mandating vaccines against rota-viruses in high-income countries?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#75

Post by raphinou »

tokenadult wrote: post #58
raphinou wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand the downvotes here,especially with no argumentation. It only illustrates my opinion: people have too extreme opinion on the subject. I maintain that being unconditionally pro or anti vaccines is a bad approach.

Writing, as you did in the grandparent post, but sometimes i have the feeling we may not get sick anymore may not need any more response than a downvote. Perhaps if you were more explicit about what you mean, your comment would be better received.

This formulation was not very good, I agree. Thanks for the constructive comment. What I meant is that some push for overly-broad vaccination when the benefits/risks ratio is too small. Just like rotavirus vaccination in high-income countries like I mentioned in two other comments clarifying my initial post.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#76

Post by dalke »

ronaldx wrote: post #69

Please note first that I am pro-vaccination. Vaccinations are a risk, which are designed to mitigate another (larger) risk. With this in mind, we shouldn't look at vaccines uncritically. The article points out that Japanese vaccinations were withdrawn because they were believed to be causing aseptic meningitis - it's a shame that no numbers are mentioned on that side of the coin. The comparative risk of vaccination o…

"it's a shame that no numbers are mentioned on that side of the coin"

Here you go: "The rates of virologically confirmed aseptic meningitis per 10,000 recipients were 16.6, 11.6, 3.2 and 0 for the standard MMR, Takeda MMR, Kitasato MMR and Biken MMR vaccines, respectively." There were 38,203 recipients, and the vaccines "were arbitrarily given".

Source is "Adverse events associated with MMR vaccines in Japan", http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8741307 .

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#77

Post by ghshephard »

contingencies wrote: post #63

The notion that we can secure ourselves from disease through immunization is clearly valid for the subset of known treatable diseases. With pure untamed conjecture, I suspect, however, that the behavioural and psychological effects of the greater population's immunity to such diseases serve primarily to reinforce the modern 'medical miracle' that may, longer term, in fact leave us in a state of reduced immune perform…

Vaccines do the precise opposite of what you just wrote - they expose you to huge numbers of viral particles ramping up your immune system so a state of enhanced immunity performance.

When you travel to foreign countries, you tend to take a number of vaccines just so that your body is ready to fight off the endemic diseases that are prevalent in the region you are traveling to.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#78

Post by gnur »

ronaldx wrote: post #69

Please note first that I am pro-vaccination. Vaccinations are a risk, which are designed to mitigate another (larger) risk. With this in mind, we shouldn't look at vaccines uncritically. The article points out that Japanese vaccinations were withdrawn because they were believed to be causing aseptic meningitis - it's a shame that no numbers are mentioned on that side of the coin. The comparative risk of vaccination o…

Your wording is one of the reasons people skip on vaccinations.

> Vaccinations are a risk, which are designed to mitigate another (larger) risk.

People don't understand risks, the lottery is one excellent example of people that don't understand basic probability. The difference between 1 in 10.000 chance of death vs 1 in 1.000.000 of sickness is huge, but when presented to most people the risk seems the same (very small).

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#79

Post by dalke »

raphinou wrote: post #72
dalke wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have made an implication, without basis, that the immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro." This is not the case. Read any of the CDC, NIH, or WHO history of vaccinations and you'll see the reasons for the decisions. You'll see the numbers of how much it costs to vaccinate, how much it costs to treat, the likelihood of disease, the likel…

> You have made an implication, without basis, that the > immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", > or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro." You have interpreted this. Read my comment without considering me as anti-vaccines and maybe you'll understand you over-reacted.... My reflection was about pushing administration of vaccines against for example stomach ulcers (vaccine in dev…

"Read my comment without considering me as anti-vaccines"

I didn't regard you as such in the first place. I regarded you as making the incorrect appeal to argument by moderation.

Now you have switched the topic, from the implication that the US health policy and/or supporters in this forum are "unconditionally pro" vaccination, to a question about a specific vaccine and disease.

I do not wish to discuss this new topic.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#80

Post by raphinou »

dalke wrote: post #79
raphinou wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have made an implication, without basis, that the > immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", > or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro." You have interpreted this. Read my comment without considering me as anti-vaccines and maybe you'll understand you over-reacted.... My reflection was about pushing administration of vaccines against for example stomach ulcers (vaccine in dev…

"Read my comment without considering me as anti-vaccines" I didn't regard you as such in the first place. I regarded you as making the incorrect appeal to argument by moderation. Now you have switched the topic, from the implication that the US health policy and/or supporters in this forum are "unconditionally pro" vaccination, to a question about a specific vaccine and disease. I do not wish to discuss this new topi…

I don't understand why you think I'm discussing US policy... It seems we don't understand each other and ending our discussion is indeed the best option.
Post reply on HN