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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

61–70 of 232 posts

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper saying that the MMR vaccine causes autism (which is where the whole concept came from) was fraudulent, so it's not just "well, a side effect is better than the disease", it's total misguidance. Also, here's an amusing Penn & Teller clip that shares your view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

Depending on the decease this side-effect IS the better alternative. It's better to have 1 autism then 100 dead people. Unless you can know in advance who will develop side-effect, they should take their changes with dead.

Read up on the fraudulent research of ex-Dr. Andrew Wakefield.

There is no as in zero, none, zilch, nada evidence that vaccines is in any way related to autism.

The reason why people still believe in a connection (apart from Wakefield's fraud) is that often when an infant gets the first shot this is about at the time when the first autism symptoms show.

I'm not claiming that there are never bad side effects of vaccines (very rare) but autism is most certainly not one of them.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#62
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my research, people who avoid vaccines are usually afraid of (big) side reactions, like infertility or autism.

Oh, those are "big" (as in, serious, though rare; or serious, but doesn't fucking happen...) but do you know what is bigger? Somebody who could not get immunized dying because you refused to get immunized. That is why it is selfish. Incredibly selfish.

[deleted]

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#63
The notion that we can secure ourselves from disease through immunization is clearly valid for the subset of known treatable diseases.

With pure untamed conjecture, I suspect, however, that the behavioural and psychological effects of the greater population's immunity to such diseases serve primarily to reinforce the modern 'medical miracle' that may, longer term, in fact leave us in a state of reduced immune performance and an 'immune monoculture', due to unnatural lifestyles and living environments, relaxed psychology, and a lack of exposure within the general population to the range of natural challengers that we once had.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#64

I am not against vaccines, it saves lives, but sometimes i have the feeling we may not get sick anymore, with all proposals for inefficient vaccines against benign affections. Sadly both camps (pro and anti vaccines) have too extreme positions to have a constructive debate.

I do not understand the downvotes here,especially with no argumentation. It only illustrates my opinion: people have too extreme opinion on the subject. I maintain that being unconditionally pro or anti vaccines is a bad approach.

You have made an implication, without basis, that the immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro."

This is not the case. Read any of the CDC, NIH, or WHO history of vaccinations and you'll see the reasons for the decisions. You'll see the numbers of how much it costs to vaccinate, how much it costs to treat, the likelihood of disease, the likelihood of death, and the effect of side-effects. You'll see research to reduce those side-effects, like improved treatment methods for those with egg allergies.

You'll see treatment policies change over time. The polio vaccine in the US use to be the more effective Sabin vaccine, which used attenuated vaccine strains that occasionally mutated to a more virulent form that gave 144 known cases of vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) between 1980 and 1999.

Since polio doesn't exist in the US, we switched to the deactivated form in 2000. This isn't as effective, which is why there's now one more shot in the vaccination series, but the old treatment, if continued, would have been deadlier.

There has always been a policy to allow people to opt out of vaccines, usually for religious reasons. (The last outbreak in the US was among Amish groups. The virus came from the Netherlands.) A reason why is because there will always be resistance to any mandate, and vaccines don't require 100% coverage to be effective in a population. It's better to let a few not be vaccinated than to use the indiscriminate and blunt threat of government intervention against them.

This means the CDC and others have to be very cautions and sensitive. For example, even though there's no evidence that mercury preservatives in vaccines cause side effects, you'll see that the vaccines were reformulated to remove thimerosal. The general policy is to minimize objections to the process, and not to force people to comply.

This is absolutely not an "unconditionally pro" policy, so you are downvoted because you're speaking out of ignorance and a blithe appeal, as jlgreco rightly points out, to an argument to moderation.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#65
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a bad idea by a long shot, but the ethical dilemma comes up when you consider the children that will be unwillingly involved. Denying the adults treatment is one thing, but denying the children treatment because of the decisions their parents made is no more acceptable than allowing that parent to deny lifesaving treatment for a child.

And allowing parents to deny their children vaccine that may save their health and life and health and life of other children is all fine? If we allow for that we might also refuse treatment alltogether and lift ban on female genital mutilation when we are at that.

> And allowing parents to deny their children vaccine that may save their health and life and health and life of other children is all fine?

Well I would say no. I am in favor of giving all children vaccines, with or without the approval of the parents.

As I said, the ethical problems are around the children. If adults want to opt themselves out, then I am perfectly cool with quarantining them in colonies and refusing them medical treatment. However they should not be permitted to drag their children along in such madness.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#66
post #43

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

in a few years there will be an outbreak of something preventable There's an outbreak of preventable childhood measles in England at this very moment

I think it's south Wales that copped the worst of it. 1,219 cases of measles, 88 hospitalisations and one death.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23168519

National newspapers are very much involved. Journalists like to present two sides of the story as equal rivals for "balance", even when one side is science and the other is paranoid quackery. When it comes to public health, this is a disaster.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#67

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

His blog (http://www.badscience.net) is also very good and he writes for the Guardian.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the decease this side-effect IS the better alternative. It's better to have 1 autism then 100 dead people. Unless you can know in advance who will develop side-effect, they should take their changes with dead.

Read up on the fraudulent research of ex-Dr. Andrew Wakefield. There is no as in zero, none, zilch, nada evidence that vaccines is in any way related to autism. The reason why people still believe in a connection (apart from Wakefield's fraud) is that often when an infant gets the first shot this is about at the time when the first autism symptoms show. I'm not claiming that there are never bad side effects of vaccin…

If nothing else, Wakefield has been a great example of the cost of scientific fraud. As a science major, I've had Wakefield drilled into me; befrauding a paper for money/fame/whatever leads to public opinion preventing herd immunity many years down the line, and indirectly, loss of lives. It's unbelievable.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#69
Please note first that I am pro-vaccination.

Vaccinations are a risk, which are designed to mitigate another (larger) risk. With this in mind, we shouldn't look at vaccines uncritically.

The article points out that Japanese vaccinations were withdrawn because they were believed to be causing aseptic meningitis - it's a shame that no numbers are mentioned on that side of the coin.

The comparative risk of vaccination ought to be regularly and properly assessed, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8096942

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the kind of attitude which can hurt people. Even kill them.

Actually last year, most people who thought the NSA was spying on everyone, were in fact highly vulnerable to all sorts of conspiracy theories. There just was no evidence. Today, with all the data we have on incompetence and failure in most intelligence agencies, we can still have some hope...

Echolon is widely known since 1980ies, "spying on everyone" is just question how filters were set. And "all the data on incompetence and failure" you have now are just a few PowerPoint slides and speculations. I would say NSA is actually very competent.

And checking basic facts != conspiracy theories.

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