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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#51

Post by EliRivers »

laughfactory wrote: post #33
sliverstorm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The folks who skip out on vaccination are (consciously or not) doing one or both of the following: 1) Counting on the herd immunity provided by everyone else to keep them safe 2) Pretending that the diseases which are being vaccinated against "really weren't all that bad" or maybe "didn't happen often"

Y'all are totally overlooking that there is a broad swath of the population that is intelligently selecting vaccinations based on current research indicating which vaccines pass the cost/benefit test. Not all vaccines are created equal--including some that are intended to solve for the same thing. And all too many who blab their opinion on pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine do so with a minimum of research and evidence to s…

Y'all are totally overlooking that there is a broad swath of the population that is intelligently selecting vaccinations based on current research

I disagree; the people I've encountered who claim to be making this kind of selection are not doing it based on current research. They're doing it based on (often slightly hysterical) websites, niche talk shows, celebrity opinion and op-ed pieces designed to sell newspapers. Doing it based on current research would require a great deal more effort, knowledge and time.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#52

Post by jlgreco »

philwelch wrote: post #13
yuhong wrote: post #2

Personally I recommend keeping vaccine exemptions but not encourage people to use them.

I recommend quarantining these people in their own communities and refusing public assistance when they inevitably get outbreaks of preventable disease.

It is not a bad idea by a long shot, but the ethical dilemma comes up when you consider the children that will be unwillingly involved.

Denying the adults treatment is one thing, but denying the children treatment because of the decisions their parents made is no more acceptable than allowing that parent to deny lifesaving treatment for a child.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#53

Post by dalke »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7
hitchhiker999 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have spoken, all interactions within biological sciences are decided. Thanks for that.

If you have valid, replicatable evidence where vaccines cause harm, I'm all ears. But if you're going to rely on anecdotal evidence, GTFO. I'm tired of hearing people not vaccinating their children and causing public health issues because they believe they're more informed than the CDC.

By "allergic reaction", I assume the g'parent poster did not mean only an allergy to the virus particles or fragments in the vaccine, but also included an allergy to the other components of the given formulation.

Some people have an egg allergy. Some vaccines are made using chicken embryos, the vaccine includes some of the egg protein, and some people are allergic even to this slight amount.

For an overview you can start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_allergy#Vaccine_hazard

The journal citations are easily accessible.

First, these allergies are quite rare. "Estimates of true allergic, or immediate hypersensitivity, reactions to routine vaccines range from 1 per 50000 doses for diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis to approximately 1 per 500000 to 1000000 doses for most other vaccines." says http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20349363 .

There are protocols for those with egg allergies, so most (95%) don't have a severe reaction to at least the flu vaccine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20368312

Another possible source of allergies is gelatin: "[The researchers] suggested that previous receipt by these patients of diphtheria-tetanus-acellular pertussis vaccines with trace amounts of gelatin was responsible for the sensitization," leading to an analysis which suggests that "Almost one fourth of patients with reported anaphylaxis after MMR seem to have hypersensitivity to gelatin in the vaccine." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12456938

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#54

Post by altero »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #48
altero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. But there is also good chance to convince government to buy huge quantities. Flu kills and becomes pandemic nearly every year. Bird/pig flu was just a bad year. There are more effective measures to fight flu. For example closing schools for couple of weeks. Also employers should allow tele-commuting during flu seasons.

Exactly the kind of attitude which can hurt people. Even kill them.

Yes, and someone who thinks that NSA is spying on him is tinfoil-hat.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#55

Post by einhverfr »

sitharus wrote: post #16

I've had the fun experience of debating with anti-vaccine people. Outside of the religious 'god will protect us' line, which I can't really argue with as it's a matter of faith, the vaccines cause autism line keeps coming up. Unfortunately for us a condition that we don't really understand is far more prevalent than the side-effects of preventable diseases. I've never met anyone who's experienced post-polio syndrome…

In the end, though, the fact is that if you require informed consent, some people won't.

The question really is whether we go around battering people for their own good by poking them with needles or whether we respect the decisions regarding medical consent, whether those are right or wrong.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#56

Post by scotty79 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #6

Way to miss the point. This is so much bigger than just vaccines, encompassing distrust of authorities, misunderstandings about the existence of god, etc. But sure lets focus on vaccines.

That's the whole point of the article. Distrust, misunderstandings, God are not bigger, because they are virtual, they are not part of physical reality, and reality doesn't care about why you ignore it. It will kill you all the same for whatever reasons.

That's why we need to focus on vaccines.

Way to miss the point of the article.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#57

Post by bayesianhorse »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #48
altero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. But there is also good chance to convince government to buy huge quantities. Flu kills and becomes pandemic nearly every year. Bird/pig flu was just a bad year. There are more effective measures to fight flu. For example closing schools for couple of weeks. Also employers should allow tele-commuting during flu seasons.

Exactly the kind of attitude which can hurt people. Even kill them.

Actually last year, most people who thought the NSA was spying on everyone, were in fact highly vulnerable to all sorts of conspiracy theories. There just was no evidence.

Today, with all the data we have on incompetence and failure in most intelligence agencies, we can still have some hope...

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#58

Post by tokenadult »

raphinou wrote: post #42
raphinou wrote: post #20

I am not against vaccines, it saves lives, but sometimes i have the feeling we may not get sick anymore, with all proposals for inefficient vaccines against benign affections. Sadly both camps (pro and anti vaccines) have too extreme positions to have a constructive debate.

I do not understand the downvotes here,especially with no argumentation. It only illustrates my opinion: people have too extreme opinion on the subject. I maintain that being unconditionally pro or anti vaccines is a bad approach.

Writing, as you did in the grandparent post,

but sometimes i have the feeling we may not get sick anymore

may not need any more response than a downvote. Perhaps if you were more explicit about what you mean, your comment would be better received.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#59

Post by [deleted] »

jlgreco wrote: post #28
oceanstone wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my research, people who avoid vaccines are usually afraid of (big) side reactions, like infertility or autism.

Oh, those are "big" (as in, serious, though rare; or serious, but doesn't fucking happen...) but do you know what is bigger? Somebody who could not get immunized dying because you refused to get immunized. That is why it is selfish. Incredibly selfish.

[deleted]

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#60

Post by scotty79 »

jlgreco wrote: post #52
philwelch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend quarantining these people in their own communities and refusing public assistance when they inevitably get outbreaks of preventable disease.

It is not a bad idea by a long shot, but the ethical dilemma comes up when you consider the children that will be unwillingly involved. Denying the adults treatment is one thing, but denying the children treatment because of the decisions their parents made is no more acceptable than allowing that parent to deny lifesaving treatment for a child.

And allowing parents to deny their children vaccine that may save their health and life and health and life of other children is all fine?

If we allow for that we might also refuse treatment alltogether and lift ban on female genital mutilation when we are at that.

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