Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
141–150 of 211 posts
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#142As usual for HN, all of the most upvoted replies disagree with the article. Let me play devil's advocate and not disagree. Sure, the analogy isn't perfect, but what happens if we take the idea seriously? [1] Isn't it amazing, the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? Even when law school was thought of as a golden ticket, it was a lottery, and to win, you had to sacrifice your perso…
the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? I don't know about you, but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive social interaction sitting in front of these damned screens. My programming skills weren't spontaneously conferred upon me, as a kid I'd spend weeks at time building foolishly impossible-to-complete applications that I'd eventually leave to rot as I hopped onto th…
This opinion of my mine does not have anything to do with how hard the work of a software developer is but more to do with simple human traits. At a bare minimum to work effectively as a software developer you need to be a good learner, ability to try new things, be able to step out of your boundaries and push yourself, discipline to sit in front of a computer for long stretches of time, and comfortable with change. These traits are in some ways the opposite of an ideal factory worker.
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#143As usual for HN, all of the most upvoted replies disagree with the article. Let me play devil's advocate and not disagree. Sure, the analogy isn't perfect, but what happens if we take the idea seriously? [1] Isn't it amazing, the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? Even when law school was thought of as a golden ticket, it was a lottery, and to win, you had to sacrifice your perso…
There's another interesting similarity not discussed in that autoworkers in, say, Wyoming, were pretty thin on the ground and not so well paid. In the Detroit area, sure there was competition and excellent pay. But in rural Wisconsin there was one (of many) rural assembly plants. Pay wasn't awful, but it wasn't as amazing as working in Detroit. And there was "a" plant. You get fired, you better move out of town becau…
I graduated in 2012. From our CS department, every student who at least managed a B average walked right into a real dev job.
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#144I'm not sure I recognize this privileged world you describe. Maybe you won't recognize mine. It's 7pm. About half the team is in the office with me (although all the people managers have gone home). We will be here a while. No one in the room earns more than 10% more than the UK median salary. The highest paid is a front end guy who sits to my right. The two behind me earn less than the median, and live with parents.…
If it's 7pm and the developers are likely to be still there for a while - is that "the norm"? Then you are in effect taking a pay cut already on what sounds like below market rate wages. This sort of practice is toxic. It's ok to work late but when it's expected as part of the job but not without any compensation (can be extra time off, not just money) then this really annoys the hell out of me. Someone higher up is making money out of this. That might be the status quo but I would really consider working on the C.V. and widening out skills and look elsewhere - there's no harm in it.
The guys behind you paid less than median (£21.3k in 2012 according to Wikipedia) and that have been at it for 3 years - from that I get the impression they were fresh out of university and this was the first job? And the highest paid guy at just 10% more, so around £23k, is there no CTO or senior developer? To me it sounds like someone's taking advantage of young, enthusiastic energy here. More so with the "we will be here a while" comment - you should work out what your effective annual salary is based on that; otherwise you can just let it slide and fall into acceptance. If your contact states 9 - 6 the company needs to appreciate the above and beyond work. That's what it is, no matter what others might tell you.
We recently hired for a mid-level developer role at our office in Hoxton and that was around the £40k mark which seems to be around right. As the tech director there I regularly get unsolicited CVs via recruiters and salary ranges requested typically range from the £30k mark up to around £60k.
I don't mean to come off as in anyway 'know it all'y or 'just do x' - I'm genuinely interested in the situation as a fellow UK based dev. Your situation contrasts starkly with my developer friends (based in London, Belfast, Hertfordshire & Leeds) so I'd like to hear more if possible. I often extol the virtue of learning developer skills to younger folk who I interact with and have always painted it as a pretty good way to get a good head-start financially over many other occupations.
When I started out at just above the median I was so thrilled that I was actually getting paid to do what I started out doing in my bedroom as a young kid. After passing the 30 mark I've come to realize it's about what value you can provide to the company, there's no shame in wanting to be out at 6, for one thing realistic timing plans that actually reflect reality are far more useful than ones papered over with hours upon hours of hidden overtime - I'm not saying that hard, late nights are out of the question - I just don't expect it to be treated as the norm' or assumed unless it's also reflected in compensation of _some sort_ (we've in the past traded late nights for conference & flight fees for instance). There's also no shame in taking a look what else is out there and moving if you have to - there is some give and take on your part in progressing. Moving jobs is usually the easiest way to significantly bump your pay grade. It's hard work but can really be worth it in the long run.
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
Arrogant, maybe, but there is at least a kernel of truth. I've done a lot of trades. I'm not a master level craftsman or anything, but I can build a house to code using just my current knowledge. The only thing I've never done is masonry, but I'm told it's not too tough. So that includes carpentry, electric, plumbing, fine wood working if you want things like molding and wainscoting, and more. I'm a very good but not…
> The reason we are currently enjoying an alternative employment universe, insulated from the rest of the economy, is that the mass of unemployed people predominantly couldn't break into this field if they wanted to. Art major, advertising minor, employed as a Software Engineer right here.
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aren't you guys using the economic definition of 'best' as in best = brings_in_the_most_money_per_unit_of_time_expended
They are. This would lead to the conclusion that Linus Torvalds is fairly middle of the road, etc.
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The reason we are currently enjoying an alternative employment universe, insulated from the rest of the economy, is that the mass of unemployed people predominantly couldn't break into this field if they wanted to. Art major, advertising minor, employed as a Software Engineer right here.
That does not contradict his statement. The reality is that programmers need to have above average intelligence, at least if we expect something more than just formulaic approaches to software problems (and if history teaches us anything, it is that formulaic approaches will likely be automated at some point). What you choose to major in in college is not indicative of your intelligence.
I agree with the sentiment you're trying to express, but there actually is a general correlation between intelligence and what one chooses to study in college. For example, it would be difficult to fault a spectrum of majors with physics on one end and psychology/sociology at the other.
Title: "IQ Estimates by College Major"
Link: http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-colle...
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#148I'm not sure I recognize this privileged world you describe. Maybe you won't recognize mine. It's 7pm. About half the team is in the office with me (although all the people managers have gone home). We will be here a while. No one in the room earns more than 10% more than the UK median salary. The highest paid is a front end guy who sits to my right. The two behind me earn less than the median, and live with parents.…
I have never heard of a job this bad. Maybe the U.S. is just El Dorado for programmers?
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#149> Don’t get too comfortable. Don’t get locked into a language. Don’t burn bridges for short term gain. Keep your tools sharp. Learn soft skills. Build an audience. Save some money. Network. Read. This is great advice. The big issue with the rust belt is that building cars was all car builders knew how to do. Most didn't have the sustained practice with learning new things to adapt to a changing environment. I wouldn'…
But, as far as auto worker and programmers being the same, I totally disagree. My hometown is a factory town and, actually, one of the few auto plants in the area that didn't get shut down or moved to Mexico.
The average plant worker (I know many, many of them - most of my high-school class in fact) is someone who may or may not have finished high school. They have no job skills except a very specific skill for their particular station on an assembly line. They hate their jobs and they don't generally spend any time trying to learn anything new. I don't say this to judge or criticize because it's their life, they make a decent wage (a fantastic wage, in fact) and it doesn't matter to me what they choose to do. But, I do see them as being at extremely high risk of losing their comfortable lifestyle because if the factory were to ever get shut - they would be completely unable to get a job at their salary level. They are totally dependent on the factory and their skill is completely worthless anywhere else.
This is nothing like any programmer I know. You can't get decent at programming with this mentality and you can't remain a decent programmer without continuing to learn new techniques. Most programmers that I know tend to always be curious and want to learn more. Although some of them don't want to take their work home, at least they like to learn new ways to be more efficient.
I would liken programmers more to a mechanic or a carpenter. It's a more general skill that you can take with you from one place to another. I think the value may go down if more people go into it, but the industry is not as likely to cave in so fast as it did for unskilled plant workers.
Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stop patting yourself on the back. Seriously . Because obviously, no other job requires critical thinking and learning continually . These are "skills" that are in no way related to programming, and do not explain an inclination towards CS rather than any other science or the myriad of other academic disciplines. And even outside academia, not every job is just that of the "sheeple" who "mindlessly" "slug away" in th…
Arrogant, maybe, but there is at least a kernel of truth. I've done a lot of trades. I'm not a master level craftsman or anything, but I can build a house to code using just my current knowledge. The only thing I've never done is masonry, but I'm told it's not too tough. So that includes carpentry, electric, plumbing, fine wood working if you want things like molding and wainscoting, and more. I'm a very good but not…
I travel a lot and the situation for devs can be very different depending of the context. In LATAM most devs are making less than other even simpler professions and chump change compared to the guys on the valley.
At the same time I meet devs in the midwest that don't get a lot of six-figure offers and have to compete for a good steady job.
99% of the IT industry in silicon valley are simple web apps that are becoming increasingly easy to develop due to better tools and standardization, is no longer like in the '70s and '80s when the actual silicon being made there couldn't be made anywhere else in the world.
But only in the valley, the alley and other such places you have investors putting the money that creates this unprecedented demand for IT workers, anywhere else its business as usual except in the third world where you have IT outsourcing companies popping up all over the place with the age-old business method of paying jack-shit to the local workers while billing first-world companies just a tad less than what first-world developers make.
If you were a developer in a third world country your only chance at a six-figure pay is to move to the first world where there are limitations due to visa and immigration problem, so for a lot of people its not about leaning how to code because they already can. Its about getting to the valley, and even for someone in the US moving to Nocal can be difficult depending on his/her situation.