Live data from Hacker News

Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

blog.baugues.com

91–100 of 211 posts

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#91
post #22

As usual for HN, all of the most upvoted replies disagree with the article. Let me play devil's advocate and not disagree. Sure, the analogy isn't perfect, but what happens if we take the idea seriously? [1] Isn't it amazing, the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? Even when law school was thought of as a golden ticket, it was a lottery, and to win, you had to sacrifice your perso…

Why do so many people who want a career involving intellectual curiosity study philosophy or mechanical engineering, when CS also gives you interesting problems, and happens to pay much better?

Because pointers and recursion are hard!

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#92

Too bad autoworkers never made $100k+/yr even with inflation adjustment. Very far fetched.

I worked in the auto industry for 10 years and I can tell you that, before the industry crash, I knew a guy who put the owner's manual in the glove box and made over $100k/yr. This was not uncommon and the guys that worked a lot overtime were millionaires. I remember one gentleman who was 72 years old and still working 7 days a week. I can tell you a lot of stories about the automotive industry that you probably won't believe.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate. Define "best" in the context of lawyers. Is it a graduate of Harvard Law? Or someone who managed to make partner at a major firm? How do you define output for a lawyer? Billable hours? Cases won? Contracts written?

How do you define "best" for a software developer? Lines of code written? Products shipped? Bugs fixed? Tickets closed? For both, it's a softer metric. Lawyers are also a good example because a large number of them work in independent consulting practice (where the "best" ones are the most profitable), but there's also a decent population in corporate law where they are paid on a salaried basis and have a less measur…

I am not the one trying to define (or use) the concept of productivity in this discussion. So I don't think it's remotely straightforward. I'm not sure how useful it is either.

A career in law is largely dominated by the "partner track", which in modern software circles is equivalent to getting hired by Google or Microsoft. The bar is pretty high to get in, few ever get fired, and the pay is good.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

defining "best" for a lawyer is similar to defining "best" for a software developer. It is production of quality at a rapid rate, choosing the right tools for a job, etc.

Aren't you guys using the economic definition of 'best' as in best = brings_in_the_most_money_per_unit_of_time_expended

They are. This would lead to the conclusion that Linus Torvalds is fairly middle of the road, etc.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#95
post #69

There are a few good points in this article, but I don't think it's all that insightful overall. A particular developer can be a lot like an auto worker, or they can be very different. The difference is continuous learning. The trouble with being an auto worker in the heyday of the industry is that, as far as I know, people generally learned a relatively small set of skills early in their career, and then expected to…

There tends to be a lot of demonizing and blaming the victim in general on HN for people who won't learn new skills. I've coasted by for a couple decades really only having two "tech" skills. I'm really, really good at systems analysis, and I'm pretty good at translating user requirements into code more or less on time and more or less with few bugs. Sure the tools and techniques have changed a bit, but much less than some would claim. After you learn your 5th or 6th language the 7th isn't a big deal. I really don't see any deep need to learn new skills beyond those two as long as I stay in the field, after all, its worked very well so far... Eventually due to ageism I'll have to do "something" else. Maybe learn the skill of management, or sales, or something like that. Donno. What does a good techie do when no one will hire him for non-tech related reasons? Maybe start a tech company, thus the interest in HN...

On resumes the "no new skills" crowd knows you can just make it up in six months if you want. For a software dev who's any good, how long does it take to learn something, contribute to an OSS project, etc? Not very long, thats for sure. New stuff comes along at every job I've ever had, and I have to implement it in a month or so. Not hire a new guy, not go take a class, production code. Its so not a big deal. There's no point in learning a new skill and telling anyone at work about it, unless you think its funny to get escorted out... after all, why update the resume unless you're looking?

The other big mistake is virtually none of the detroit workers had the skill of making cars. There are people who have the skill of making cars. I have a cousin with that skill, who's a large diesel mechanic who has a hobby of tearing down cars and rebuilding, all by himself, bare metal components up, including (obviously?) engine assembly. He's stripped and rebuilt two classic corvettes and a ancient jeep, so far. Virtually no autoworkers can do that other than coincidentally as a hobby. They can tighten a bolt on a line, or align an assembly, or insert/stack partially finished parts, or press a e-stop button if the robot goes nuts. They suffer from HR doing "keyword selection" just as much as we do now. Oh look he worked on a car line, well he is totally unqualified to tighten the same bolt on our truck line. Anyway, none of them can build a car. Once, a long time ago, I worked in IT at a large regional printer. That doesn't mean I was a "press worker" or I could do much of anything with putting ink on paper other than program ethernet switches for embedded control devices. "autoworkers" are the same way.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#96
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm told that CS enrollments are now at record highs Given the high dropout rate of anyone attempting to learn programming, I don't think enrollment rate is good metric. > What's the barrier to entry that's keeping us from being flooded with supply? Programming is hard; really f'ing hard, for most people because it requires critical thinking continually and learning continually.

>Given the high dropout rate of anyone attempting to learn programming Its about the same as any other major. I googled around and found the 1999 cohort for Southeast Louisiana University (no particular reason, just google found it easily...) and they tracked freshmen's declared major and what they actually graduated with, if anything, after six years. In comp sci, it is true that 93% of self declared freshman comp s…

Those drop out rates are appalling!

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#97
post #22

As usual for HN, all of the most upvoted replies disagree with the article. Let me play devil's advocate and not disagree. Sure, the analogy isn't perfect, but what happens if we take the idea seriously? [1] Isn't it amazing, the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? Even when law school was thought of as a golden ticket, it was a lottery, and to win, you had to sacrifice your perso…

Why do so many people who want a career involving intellectual curiosity study philosophy or mechanical engineering, when CS also gives you interesting problems, and happens to pay much better? Why don't people switch? Unlike with ME, CE, etc., you don't have to take the PE and get all sorts of licensing to find work. You just need to be able to pass some interviews. I met folks at Hacker School [3] who switched from econ, ME, OR, and other quantitative fields to CS, because you have more freedom to pursue ideas, can do more without being part of a huge team that makes you a tiny cog in a giant machine. And, by the way, it pays twice as well. But, it's still not common to see people switch.

Because CS is seen as a bunch of unprincipled, flash-in-the-pan geeky bullshit by most people, not everyone has the talent to be a good programmer (the industry has too many already, the last thing the world needs is more mindless morons plugging libraries together without the foggiest idea of what is going on) and people pursue what interests them. CS has a bad reputation from both ends - the more pure subjects like Philosophy and Math view it as intellectually-inferior (my Analysis professor, who was probably at least 75, obtusely claimed that programming a computer is "easy" and "trivial") and the more concrete, practical subjects such as Electrical, Civil and Mechanical engineering tend to make fun of the CS people (and harbor resentment towards them) for making millions off of websites that foster self-indulgent behavior while they design airplane engines, artificial hearts and power grids.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm told that CS enrollments are now at record highs Given the high dropout rate of anyone attempting to learn programming, I don't think enrollment rate is good metric. > What's the barrier to entry that's keeping us from being flooded with supply? Programming is hard; really f'ing hard, for most people because it requires critical thinking continually and learning continually.

It's not so hard. I think that most college freshmen find it so is because the quality of their prior education is so low. Many high schools still lack any programming curriculum.

Minor correction:

... still lack any educational curriculum.

Plenty of preparation for institutional living and blind obedience to authority. Education? Eh who needs it, we have standardized tests to prep for. Unfortunately it seems citizens and college students need education. Whoops.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#99
post #4

> Don’t get too comfortable. Don’t get locked into a language. Don’t burn bridges for short term gain. Keep your tools sharp. Learn soft skills. Build an audience. Save some money. Network. Read. This is great advice. The big issue with the rust belt is that building cars was all car builders knew how to do. Most didn't have the sustained practice with learning new things to adapt to a changing environment. I wouldn'…

This is a problem with most professions though; most people feel they learnt something (in or outside of the educational system) for years and they are automatically entitled to a job for life.

As a programmer I try to have enough hobbies which can be used to make money; making/selling icecream (made enough with that this summer for 7 month of living including the working months), making/selling beer, making/selling cheese, welding, creating little RVs out of normal vans, electronics... And that is next to me not seeing anyone 'hacking a bit of WP' replacing any but mediocre coders anyway.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#100
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are talking about the front end of a corporate site then sure, you can do that in WP. Don't think many would though; maybe for the grocery shop, but other than that? Even relatively small businesses in my neighborhood with not much cash to spend start out with a 'cheap WP' site, but then they want reservation systems integrated with their CRM. They want a live chat system. Integrated with their CRM. They want…

I was surprised to see a multi-million dollar corporation (nameless) using wordpress. It's slow and bloated but I guess it gets the job done. Naturally they went to someone and said they needed a site, then that someone did what they do best and installed wordpress with some theme. Naturally when it came time to make certain changes or something broke the installer couldn't do anything about it. This is a B2B company…

Yep, and that's were it gets very expensive very fast and that's also were 'cheap' programmers cannot help at all. I have 3 friends who quit their jobs and went into website creation. They make simple sites based on WP and make nice money with it. They look mostly horrible but clients can talk to them on their level and feel comfortable. These sites go between E1500-2500 per site. Now when anything breaks / doesn't work / has issues, they have to hire someone to fix it and they have to trust this person; in most cases, the cost of fixing/adding on by this 'more capable' person is more expensive than the site was in the first place. So it's a good market for capable coders / admins to dive into. Optimizing, securing, fixing, extending. All money makers far beyond the boring setup of the initial site.
Post reply on HN