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'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

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Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#71

Post by zeidrich »

It's interesting that similar studies have been done with brain-training games and they have no noticeable effect on a persons mind.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/04/brain...

I think one of the things that makes SC2 special is not simply the gameplay, but the stress that it puts you under at the same time. Not only do you have to make the correct decision, you have to make the correct decision NOW and if you don't, you will suffer consequences. This combined with the need for precise control forces you to either develop or suffer repeated failure. As it's also - in it's highest difficulty - a competitive game, there's also social pressure to not fail. Look only to these comments to see that; one commenter states his rank, others try to discredit his position. This pecking order is something important to them.

A game like the Sims as a control, is very different. You tell a story, you might have game elements, but there's much less stress, you have much fewer decisions you need to make in a short period, and if you make an error it changes the story rather than typical cause disastrous failure. You can not develop and still enjoy yourself. The fun is in the narrative, not "win" or "lose". There is no competition.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#72

Post by rfnslyr »

JPKab wrote: post #70
rfnslyr wrote: post #39

Top 100 world ranked grand master here. The amount of time I have poured into this game is absolutely unreal, I could have probably raised a family of 5 in the time I spent playing StarCraft. I found myself better at a lot of games after being so intense in SCII. Co-ordination, decision making, a better understanding of strategy, all improved. I got better at Chess, was able to pick things up quicker. Great experienc…

Wow. I got completely addicted to SC2, and I never even approached competitive levels before I realized that it was JUST TOO MUCH for a hobby. It ceased being relaxing or even fun, and turned into all out, balls to the walls competition. The day I found myself practicing keyboard commands to get my APM up is the day I decided that I needed to do something that was more physical fitness oriented if I was going to risk…

>A well executed yet poorly chosen strategy will often defeat a poorly executed yet well chosen strategy.

The absolute BANE of my early SC2 Days. Kept questioning and getting discouraged by strategy until I realized my problem was literally just mechanics.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#73

Post by rfnslyr »

vladimirralev wrote: post #68
bitwize wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the top guys in SC I'd heard of had APM in the high 200s at least. Maximizing APM is more like agility drills in football: a basic foundational skill whose lack will prevent you from executing even if you have a great meta game.

Yes, unless you specialize in cheesy builds, you have to have a great APM. I think there used to be at least 2 GMs in WoL who were just cannon rushing or 6pooling every game with 100 or so APM.

Yeah that was me, sorry. I tried, for fun, to cheese my way into GM and it's entirely possible.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#74

Post by cron »

Finster wrote: post #46
hueyp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing those analogies miss is that starcraft is an imperfect knowledge game. You don't know everything about your opponent as you would in chess and fencing. It is similar to poker in that regard. This is probably my favorite part of the game -- watching pro level players react perfectly to even the slightest tell.

That's not true. Starcraft is a game of perfect knowledge. For instance, good scouting and/or good observer placement can reveal what units are built, what is being produced, and what technology has been researched. There is nothing that a player can hide from well-executed scouting. Unlike poker, where you can never see the opponents hand, in Starcraft you can see everything your opponent is doing if you scout well.

I'd say levelling (getting inside a players head, understanding how they'll react to a situation and staying one step ahead) is important for higher level play in both games.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#76

Post by xal »

I'm CEO of a medium sized company now. I played semi pro broodwar and masters level SC2.

Nothing in this surprises me. More then anything else Starcraft is a game where you learn how to use limited information better than your opponent. Think about it, it's really silly that people treat chess as this game with all these advantages for your brain and games like Starcraft are ignored. When in life do you have perfect information about a situation?

Building a company is incredibly similar to a 1:1 in starcraft. You start blank slate, you make lots of decisions based on the information you have. You invest into experiments and reconnaissance and you eventually try to build up a small advantage that you leverage into a win. Early game, mid game, and end game are totally different phases that all map well to the lifecycle of a startup.

This kind of training is incredible.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#77

Post by arh68 »

luanfernandes wrote: post #21
astrobe_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a far from obvious, to me, is that this specific training in a specific context improves response outside of this context and for other tasks. Really how knowing that you have to build immortals when you see roaches - or vikings when you see colossi, could possibly useful in everyday life?

It's not the information that useful but how you use them. I have no study to back me up but imo if you keep playing strategy games that tell you which thing is best than another and how one thing can be beaten, it can apply to anything in life when it comes to decisions, that's the lesson learned.

I think you've got the right idea. The 'facts' of what-counters-what don't matter too much; it's the feedback mechanism that matters. When you see Player 2 do X, you use that info to play the best Y. Good scouting decreases this feedback timing, and the player that iterates better will, given enough time, come out on top.

In SC2, there's a spectrum of usefulness to information. Finding a proxy pylon is hard, but screams intention. Scouting early double gas is easy, perhaps, but is more clouded. In chess, all the positions of the pieces are obvious (no concept of scouting), but all the information is clouded beneath layers of moves-after-moves. A very powerful attack can be hidden in plain sight.

In this more general context of iterative gathering & analyzing of information in pursuit of a victory condition, I can see how it applies. The fact that the general mechanism (however it works, exactly) can be exercised through a specific game is still intriguing.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#78

Post by cpeterso »

rfnslyr wrote: post #73
vladimirralev wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, unless you specialize in cheesy builds, you have to have a great APM. I think there used to be at least 2 GMs in WoL who were just cannon rushing or 6pooling every game with 100 or so APM.

Yeah that was me, sorry. I tried, for fun, to cheese my way into GM and it's entirely possible.

For us non-StarCraft players, what is a "cheesy build"? <:)

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#80

Post by newsoundwave »

rfnslyr wrote: post #73
vladimirralev wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, unless you specialize in cheesy builds, you have to have a great APM. I think there used to be at least 2 GMs in WoL who were just cannon rushing or 6pooling every game with 100 or so APM.

Yeah that was me, sorry. I tried, for fun, to cheese my way into GM and it's entirely possible.

To cpeterso: (HN has a reply depth limit) A cheesy build has a couple definitions depending on who you are, but it generally refers to an "all or nothing" style build that usually depends on a gimmick that goes undetected.

For example, one race of Starcraft has early access to a building that can fire upon enemies. If they can build these building strategically near an enemy's base without the enemy noticing, they can effectively box an enemy in, preventing them from expanding or attack until they commit a large enough force to destroy those buildings.

The same race in Starcraft can build permanently cloaked units that can only be detected with an "observer" class unit/building. If you can obtain the requirements for building said cloaked units without your opponent noticing and then build a few, you can send in these invisible units to damage your opponent until they have the proper response.

Basically, it's a strategy that can be overwhelming if it works, but it has a few tells and being discovered committing one of these strategies early enough is basically a loss.

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