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'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

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Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#61

Post by rfnslyr »

niuzeta wrote: post #47
rfnslyr wrote: post #39

Top 100 world ranked grand master here. The amount of time I have poured into this game is absolutely unreal, I could have probably raised a family of 5 in the time I spent playing StarCraft. I found myself better at a lot of games after being so intense in SCII. Co-ordination, decision making, a better understanding of strategy, all improved. I got better at Chess, was able to pick things up quicker. Great experienc…

> What other games REQUIRE you to have 300APM sort of tangential point here, but this usage of 'require' is exactly why I dropped starcraft 2 and possibly will never come back. When a game stops being a game and starts being a... work, it loses all the fun. Back in the days of WoL I toyed with the idea of playing with less APM and winning with more strategy, like pincer-attacks or enclosure; it worked up till Diamond…

Around 50% of the games I play, are micro practice. There are a lot of tiny mechanics, that when worked into real games and executed flawlessly, put you ahead.

For example, spent a few weeks trying to defeat the 30 level terran baneling micro map. I got to a point where I was able to get to the near end every single time I played. Then I tried working it into real games. It took a bit of practice but now I have near perfect marine splitting micro which puts me ahead of a lot of players.

Then dropship/heal micro. Worker fighting micro and tricks.

SC2 is so much more than just strategy, so many tiny little unit tricks to do. If you nail the mechanics and you're also decent in strategy you will make it so far.

>when I found myself training for some micro, I knew it was time to give it up.

What why? It's just another facet of the game. 50% mechanics 50% strategy.

At the upper echelons of SC2 it's less about builds and micro, but more of knowing who you are playing. I play the same people over and over again for the past 4 years. I know what works with some players, I know what doesn't with others. Strategy migrates into pure mind game play.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#62

Post by phaus »

rfnslyr wrote: post #39

Top 100 world ranked grand master here. The amount of time I have poured into this game is absolutely unreal, I could have probably raised a family of 5 in the time I spent playing StarCraft. I found myself better at a lot of games after being so intense in SCII. Co-ordination, decision making, a better understanding of strategy, all improved. I got better at Chess, was able to pick things up quicker. Great experienc…

>Once you play at top competitive tier in SC2, every other game is honestly a joke.

You could say this about top-level play for a lot of games. You just happen to prefer SC2.

I play competitive Counterstrike:GO. People often think that FPS games are simple, just a bunch of people running around trying to shoot each other in the face. That's like saying a game like SC2 is about gathering resources, building bases, and raising armies. It isn't entirely inaccurate, but it's definitely an oversimplification.

There is actually quite a bit of strategic depth to games like Counterstrike, and being able to shoot accurately is less important than knowing what you are supposed to do in any specific situation.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#63

Post by rubiquity »

rfnslyr wrote: post #57
rubiquity wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SC2 does not require you to have 300 APM. Maximizing APM is to SC2/BW as pre-optimizations are to programming in my opinion. I do agree with the rest of your points though. I never got much into SC2 (became #1 in my Diamond league within the first month of the game being out) as it lacks several playability characteristics that the first SC had. I played BW for about 8 years and went to several tournaments and was B…

I have to respectfully disagree. When you get into the upper top X of world player, you won't find many without a high APM.

A lot of that 300 APM is from the early stages of the game where people are spamming actions like crazy. As the game goes on the average tends to come down. I do envy the players that are able to maintain 220+ in big battles though, but I only envy them if they're microing well and queueing units at the same time.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#64

Post by phaus »

Finster wrote: post #46
hueyp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing those analogies miss is that starcraft is an imperfect knowledge game. You don't know everything about your opponent as you would in chess and fencing. It is similar to poker in that regard. This is probably my favorite part of the game -- watching pro level players react perfectly to even the slightest tell.

That's not true. Starcraft is a game of perfect knowledge. For instance, good scouting and/or good observer placement can reveal what units are built, what is being produced, and what technology has been researched. There is nothing that a player can hide from well-executed scouting. Unlike poker, where you can never see the opponents hand, in Starcraft you can see everything your opponent is doing if you scout well.

To obtain that information, you have to invest resources first. Therefore, it is a game that requires you to make decisions with imperfect knowledge.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#65

Post by vladimirralev »

niuzeta wrote: post #47
rfnslyr wrote: post #39

Top 100 world ranked grand master here. The amount of time I have poured into this game is absolutely unreal, I could have probably raised a family of 5 in the time I spent playing StarCraft. I found myself better at a lot of games after being so intense in SCII. Co-ordination, decision making, a better understanding of strategy, all improved. I got better at Chess, was able to pick things up quicker. Great experienc…

> What other games REQUIRE you to have 300APM sort of tangential point here, but this usage of 'require' is exactly why I dropped starcraft 2 and possibly will never come back. When a game stops being a game and starts being a... work, it loses all the fun. Back in the days of WoL I toyed with the idea of playing with less APM and winning with more strategy, like pincer-attacks or enclosure; it worked up till Diamond…

You don't need to be a top player to enjoy the game and take full advantage of it in terms of exercise. I switched to play on a MBP laptop (no Fs, no camera hotkeys, general crippled feel). In a way this was my excuse to myself for losing at high levels. And it was fine. You can make peace with it in a few days and after that it was pure joy.

I often think about SC problems and apply a lot of these thoughts in real world work problems. For example imagine you have all the ladder data from the servers like all build orders or replays of the games ever. How would you estimate if the game is balanced between the races? Thinking about problems like this gave me enough experience to tackle some jobs that used to be way outside my field.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#66

Post by cloverich »

Vaskivo wrote: post #25
UweSchmidt wrote: post #9

Consider the opportunity costs involved. The huge amount of time and energy usually 'spent' on games like this could have been used for something else, possibly boosting mental flexibility and other things equally or more than Starcraft. I would expect the purported positive effects of gaming should be way more pronounced, given the many hours many people play each day. It seems that someone who spends the same time…

As kayoone already said, people usually play games for fun. Knowing or realizing games have some benefit is a bonus. As the effort/exaustion part, people actually like that. In fact, the tiredness is mainly something people tolerate as a "cost" for all the "fun". When I play sports with friends I'm not doing it to be fit, I'm doing it for the social intercation, the friendly competition. I'll be tired and with some b…

> It made me think. I guess I like being challenged.

I think this is a somewhat overlooked aspect of gaming and its relation to one's personality in general. I've found, especially as I've aged, that I much prefer competitive, difficult games. Especially with starcraft, the combination of the skill and focus required seems to relax me in a way - even when it frustrates me, I'm still completely drawn away from every other thing I was focused on / worried about previously. I've now found that if a game isn't genuinely challenging, for the most part I don't enjoy it (and to the point, play very few games at all anymore).

Conversely, I have a friend that only enjoys casual games - I think he'd happily complete every game available on God mode, if it were an option.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#67

Post by rfnslyr »

rubiquity wrote: post #63
rfnslyr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to respectfully disagree. When you get into the upper top X of world player, you won't find many without a high APM.

A lot of that 300 APM is from the early stages of the game where people are spamming actions like crazy. As the game goes on the average tends to come down. I do envy the players that are able to maintain 220+ in big battles though, but I only envy them if they're microing well and queueing units at the same time.

Actually no, the beginning APM isn't long enough to have a lasting impact on the next 30 minutes of the game. I have around 250 constant, no spam. Once you master hotkeys and mechanics it's second nature.

It's like how when we see a piano player playing at like 500 APM. She can just hit the chords and it will still sound beautiful. That's not the point though. While you can still execute strategy at a lower APM, that extra APM helps to execute it on a new level.

Am I making any sense? I feel like I'm not lol.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#68

Post by vladimirralev »

bitwize wrote: post #60
rubiquity wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SC2 does not require you to have 300 APM. Maximizing APM is to SC2/BW as pre-optimizations are to programming in my opinion. I do agree with the rest of your points though. I never got much into SC2 (became #1 in my Diamond league within the first month of the game being out) as it lacks several playability characteristics that the first SC had. I played BW for about 8 years and went to several tournaments and was B…

All the top guys in SC I'd heard of had APM in the high 200s at least. Maximizing APM is more like agility drills in football: a basic foundational skill whose lack will prevent you from executing even if you have a great meta game.

Yes, unless you specialize in cheesy builds, you have to have a great APM. I think there used to be at least 2 GMs in WoL who were just cannon rushing or 6pooling every game with 100 or so APM.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#69

Post by sandyarmstrong »

Finster wrote: post #46
hueyp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing those analogies miss is that starcraft is an imperfect knowledge game. You don't know everything about your opponent as you would in chess and fencing. It is similar to poker in that regard. This is probably my favorite part of the game -- watching pro level players react perfectly to even the slightest tell.

That's not true. Starcraft is a game of perfect knowledge. For instance, good scouting and/or good observer placement can reveal what units are built, what is being produced, and what technology has been researched. There is nothing that a player can hide from well-executed scouting. Unlike poker, where you can never see the opponents hand, in Starcraft you can see everything your opponent is doing if you scout well.

I think you misunderstand what is meant by a perfect knowledge game. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information . Basically, it would be perfect knowledge if there was no fog of war, if you could see what was in your opponents medivacs, what their buildings were producing, what tech they were researching...basically, if both you and your opponent had ready access to all the same knowledge.

Starcraft does not have this, even with impossibly perfect scouting, so it is not a perfect knowledge game.

Re: 'StarCraft' Gameplay Boosts Mental Flexibility, Says Study

#70

Post by JPKab »

rfnslyr wrote: post #39

Top 100 world ranked grand master here. The amount of time I have poured into this game is absolutely unreal, I could have probably raised a family of 5 in the time I spent playing StarCraft. I found myself better at a lot of games after being so intense in SCII. Co-ordination, decision making, a better understanding of strategy, all improved. I got better at Chess, was able to pick things up quicker. Great experienc…

Wow. I got completely addicted to SC2, and I never even approached competitive levels before I realized that it was JUST TOO MUCH for a hobby. It ceased being relaxing or even fun, and turned into all out, balls to the walls competition. The day I found myself practicing keyboard commands to get my APM up is the day I decided that I needed to do something that was more physical fitness oriented if I was going to risk injury (RSM is a big deal in SC2).

I think you hit the nail on the head though: SC2 is of course a strategy game, but the real-time aspect of it makes the speed with which a player can chain together commands and movements much more important than the overall strategy. A well executed yet poorly chosen strategy will often defeat a poorly executed yet well chosen strategy.

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