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Don't reinvent the scrollbar

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Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#111

Post by TheZenPsycho »

x0054 wrote: post #106
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, what smacks of fascism? The choice, in this case, is Apple's, inflicted on all of its customers. If anything that is not obviously harmful can be reduced to mere "preference" then what is the point of hiring designers? just deliver raw html code and a textfield for users to write in their own css, right? Of course, I admit this is reducing the argument to absurdity, but so is calling my position "fascism".…

Some people argue that Apple limits the users by not giving them enough options. You are of the opinion that Apple provides entirely too many user options. Not only should the users always have scroll bars on, but they also should not have the ability to turn them off. (correct me if I misunderstood)

what "some people" argue is irrelevant here. Who are "some people" anyway? "Apple provides entirely too many user options" is not in any way the argument I've made. My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. If you want the generalised form of that argument, it is:

1. this, and other "preferences" are not arbitrary or meaningless. They have real consequences (even if the only real consequence is minor annoyance)

2. the presentation of too many choices is in fact, a real and well documented anti-pattern in UI-design. Too many choices is cognitive overload. Programmers like choices. programmers like power. but ordinary mortals don't care what colour their window title bars are, as long as the colour doesn't get in the way of their job.

3. Given the above, it is the UI designer's responsibility to be very opinionated about what the defaults of a system should be, and what should be configurable as a choice. (the fewer choices the better, generally, from a design perspective.)

4. as a corollary to that, I am aware that "some people" are uncomfortable about Apple's lack of configuration options. Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing a UI. Or you end up with a monstrosity like the desktop linux ecosystem. It's essentially an argument from ignorance of the research.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#112

Post by leviathan »

johnchristopher wrote: post #108
millstone wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scrolling interface is always visible. It's just on the input device instead of the screen. Originally, the scroll bar itself was the interface. You scrolled by clicking the little arrows, or by grabbing the scroll thumb and dragging. But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary. And with the advent of trackpad magic/mouse scrolling, which support both horizontal and vertical scrol…

So far I only met trackpad magic/mouse scrolling on a mac or laptop. That leaves a lot of desktop computers out. I am typing this on a iMac 2006 and even if the mouse has a wheel I still grab the bar because it's more precise (it allows to put the text where I want) than scrolling (which just increments height offset by a proportional fixed value).

When my mouse died, I got a magic trackpad instead. It's much more precise than using a mouse, you don't need to keep hunting the scroll bar everytime you scroll, and with all the gestures I don't even miss the mouse anymore. With a little practice I'm even able to do Photoshop work from the trackpad.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#113

Post by ttflee »

leviathan wrote: post #112
johnchristopher wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far I only met trackpad magic/mouse scrolling on a mac or laptop. That leaves a lot of desktop computers out. I am typing this on a iMac 2006 and even if the mouse has a wheel I still grab the bar because it's more precise (it allows to put the text where I want) than scrolling (which just increments height offset by a proportional fixed value).

When my mouse died, I got a magic trackpad instead. It's much more precise than using a mouse, you don't need to keep hunting the scroll bar everytime you scroll, and with all the gestures I don't even miss the mouse anymore. With a little practice I'm even able to do Photoshop work from the trackpad.

Magic Trackpad prevails, at least in this case.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#114

Post by stormbrew »

Kind of a tangent but it drives me nuts when websites not only reinvent the scrollbar, but also the actual mechanisms of scrolling. Every time I go to a blog post on Medium and press space to go down a page and it does nothing it triggers a disproportionate amount of frustration.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#115

Post by calebegg »

bhauer wrote: post #87
Myrth wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I'd like to have control over my full page representation and width across browsers and OSes, and scrollbars styling is missing or non-uniform or unreliable. EDIT: Scrollbars are inside viewport, meaning they're effectively part of my document, and I'd like to have a say how they look like, the same as form elements.

Funny, I just replied to TheZenPsycho and mentioned in an aside that I recall older IE versions (and possibly recent ones as well) did allow the content author to apply styles to the scrollbar with CSS. I have had mixed feelings about that but in general, I would agree with you that it should be open to styling. I agree because I assume the scrollbar would retain its functionality. By styling it, I don't lose, for ex…

Not just IE; Webkit allows absurdly extensive CSS customization of the scrollbar. You can see it in action on Google+, or an overview of the features here:

http://css-tricks.com/custom-scrollbars-in-webkit/

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#117

Post by Yaggo »

mietek wrote: post #13

I was nodding along, when suddenly... > One alternative is to ignore iOS and OS X users. But that’s not very nice. There are many scrolling libraries available that you can use, such as NiceScroll. > Or you can just make your own indicator like the one seen at the very start of the article. Just don’t use a horizontal indicator for vertical progression :) No! Do not do this. Just stop. Stop reinventing and reimplemen…

Totally agree. Here the author (of the original post) contradicts himself. Users of OS X have chosen to use a UI with tiny hiding scrollbars and likely are accustomed for that. Let the browser natively handle the scrollbars, any custom hack may cause usability/technical/performance problems on certain platforms sooner or later.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#118

Post by rdsubhas »

mbell wrote: post #92
millstone wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scrolling interface is always visible. It's just on the input device instead of the screen. Originally, the scroll bar itself was the interface. You scrolled by clicking the little arrows, or by grabbing the scroll thumb and dragging. But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary. And with the advent of trackpad magic/mouse scrolling, which support both horizontal and vertical scrol…

For the most part I agree, I like what OSX does. However, there are edge cases which are infuriating. Have you tried to scroll through an HTML in Chrome on OSX? The only word I can use to describe the experience is 'rage'.

sucks wherever it goes.

and when the designer makes it smaller in height, it sucks ten times more.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#119

Post by x0054 »

x0054 wrote: post #102
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "personal taste" argument comes up a lot in usability conversations. I find it to be incredibly weak. I might personally prefer to walk blindfolded across busy roadways. But that doesn't make it broadly easy or advisable. It's just simply a bad decision. There shouldn't be a preference, it should just be on by default, end of story. It only makes sense on iPads. The fact that it's auto-hide by default means that…

This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not…

I am of an opinion that one only needs a scroll bar when scrolling. On OSX the scroll bars are always visible when scrolling. You think you know better, and would like to overwrite my preference with yours. I don't think we will ever agree. I like options you like rules.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#120

Post by Semaphor »

mattstocum wrote: post #58
Semaphor wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially since NiceScroll isn't very nice. The scrolling is jerky. Interesting, on what devices? We are using NiceScroll for a widget right now and it's very smooth, even on my Nexus 4.

On my MacBook Pro it's bad. The scrolling is jerky and doesn't feel right, like there's too much inertia and too much momentum, and you can't stop it once it's scrolling. On iOS there is to little momentum. There's also no point in it. Safari already scrolls web pages, why re-implement it in javascript? You're also losing new features OS X 10.9 does under the hood, like pre-rendering off-screen content to enable smoo…

There is a point of it as inline native scrollbars in a rather small box look absolutely horrible.
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