Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don't reinvent the scrollbar

bbrks.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 172 posts

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#81

Post by roryokane »

shadowOfShadow wrote: post #73

I dislike scrolling. I dislike scrollbars. All. Re-imagine content. Eliminate scrolling. Keep content represented on the screen. Elegent, progressively granular navigation on the screen. I love when a scrollbar handle thins to represent the proportion of content on the screen and shits the usability bed. You have only so many words left to say or type. Use less. Live/Say more. Condense information to fit the medium.…

Perhaps many apps would benefit from this, but there are some cases where content has to be larger than the screen. This includes high-resolution images whose details you want to inspect (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Singer_Sargent_-_Mrs....), and books on websites such as http://www.talesofmu.com/story/ and https://www.fanfiction.net/.

In the case of an image, the ways of seeing different parts of the image I can think of are zooming in and out, scrolling with scroll bars, or paginating the image. I think allowing both zooming and scrolling is the best interface in that case. So scrolling is sometimes necessary, and should not be abolished.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#82

Post by cdmoyer »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #74
bhauer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you--I prefer for the scrollbar to remain visible. In my preferred reading environment, a Windows PC running Firefox, it does remain visible. I like clean design, but not at the expense of function. I am firmly of the opinion that too much functionality has been sacrificed from modern user interfaces at the altar of simplicity. I'm nevertheless of the point of view that the content author should…

In principle I agree with you. In this case apple's decision causes actual problems with content. Putting stuff in a scrollable iframe, or overflow scroll pane now involves carefully instructing people on how to scroll it. Or you force your own custom scrollbars. Or just not have scrollable panes-- you could argue that is a good thing, but sometimes they are unavoidable. Like, for instance, here on HN if someone happ…

Heh, funnily enough, it scrolls with one finger on the beta iOS. Although, I think they may have changed that in a previous safari update.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#83

Post by millstone »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #49
bhauer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Not to put to fine a point on it, but if your user is on iOS or OS X, they are accustomed to losing sight of their progress because, as the article says, "Apple knows best." Going out of your way as a content author to correct for the user interface quirks of the reader's preferred reading environment seems extraordinary and unnecessary. Presumably a non-trivial number of iOS and OS X users actually like the…

It's my preferred reading environment, but I hate that apple made this decision, because, as my sibling commenter here noted, it's outright user hostile. Apple never really totally understood the "visibility" requirement of usable interfaces. They like to hide things to make them look pretty, and it only leads to better advertising, not better interfaces. Thankfully there's still a setting to always show scrollbars.…

The scrolling interface is always visible. It's just on the input device instead of the screen.

Originally, the scroll bar itself was the interface. You scrolled by clicking the little arrows, or by grabbing the scroll thumb and dragging. But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary. And with the advent of trackpad magic/mouse scrolling, which support both horizontal and vertical scrolling, the scroll-bar-as-interface becomes ridiculous.

(Note that the default OS X behavior is not "hide scroll bars," but "hide scroll bars if your mouse or trackpad supports scrolling.")

That said, while there's no longer much need to interact with scroll bars, there's still a need to indicate that scrolling is possible, and possibly your position in the document. But surely we can convey that in fewer than the ten thousand pixels that a scroll bar consumes?

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#84

Post by Myrth »

bhauer wrote: post #56
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my preferred reading environment, but I hate that apple made this decision, because, as my sibling commenter here noted, it's outright user hostile. Apple never really totally understood the "visibility" requirement of usable interfaces. They like to hide things to make them look pretty, and it only leads to better advertising, not better interfaces. Thankfully there's still a setting to always show scrollbars.…

I actually agree with you--I prefer for the scrollbar to remain visible. In my preferred reading environment, a Windows PC running Firefox, it does remain visible. I like clean design, but not at the expense of function. I am firmly of the opinion that too much functionality has been sacrificed from modern user interfaces at the altar of simplicity. I'm nevertheless of the point of view that the content author should…

Sometimes I'd like to have control over my full page representation and width across browsers and OSes, and scrollbars styling is missing or non-uniform or unreliable.

EDIT: Scrollbars are inside viewport, meaning they're effectively part of my document, and I'd like to have a say how they look like, the same as form elements.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#85

Post by millstone »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #74
bhauer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you--I prefer for the scrollbar to remain visible. In my preferred reading environment, a Windows PC running Firefox, it does remain visible. I like clean design, but not at the expense of function. I am firmly of the opinion that too much functionality has been sacrificed from modern user interfaces at the altar of simplicity. I'm nevertheless of the point of view that the content author should…

In principle I agree with you. In this case apple's decision causes actual problems with content. Putting stuff in a scrollable iframe, or overflow scroll pane now involves carefully instructing people on how to scroll it. Or you force your own custom scrollbars. Or just not have scrollable panes-- you could argue that is a good thing, but sometimes they are unavoidable. Like, for instance, here on HN if someone happ…

In Safari, there's no visual indication that the content is horizontally scrollable. That's a problem.

In Firefox, there's a big scroll bar. This scroll bar consumes more visual space than the content it scrolls. That's an absurdity.

Scrollbars are a legacy UI element, a throwback to an era before scrolling mice and trackpads. You nicely illustrated a problem, but your proposed solution makes no sense on modern computers with dedicated scrolling gestures.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#86

Post by eagsalazar2 »

roryokane wrote: post #79
eagsalazar2 wrote: post #63

Two assumptions: * horizontal progress for vertical content is bad * infinite scroll is better than pages/tabs/whatever Just saying "poor natural mapping" doesn't mean horizontal progress is wrong and just saying "why would you" doesn't make pages wrong. I'd like to see data to support those assumptions. On infinite scroll I'd bet horizontal progress has minuscule negative impact on usability vs vertical progress. On…

As for “horizontal progress for vertical content is bad”, I’m pretty sure that’s right, but that’s mainly relying on my intuition. If I think about the concept and scroll my page up and down while imagining a horizontal scroll bar, my mind just rebels and thinks “this is not right”. It’s just obvious to me that a scroll bar should be vertical when you scroll vertically. I can also offer some reasoning: when the scrol…

I get 100% why it seem like it should matter I just don't buy that it actually does matter (much). http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-29/the-science-.... That article is a great example of how completely wrong our intuition can be when it comes to optimizing conversions and I think the same applies to usability.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#87

Post by bhauer »

Myrth wrote: post #84
bhauer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you--I prefer for the scrollbar to remain visible. In my preferred reading environment, a Windows PC running Firefox, it does remain visible. I like clean design, but not at the expense of function. I am firmly of the opinion that too much functionality has been sacrificed from modern user interfaces at the altar of simplicity. I'm nevertheless of the point of view that the content author should…

Sometimes I'd like to have control over my full page representation and width across browsers and OSes, and scrollbars styling is missing or non-uniform or unreliable. EDIT: Scrollbars are inside viewport, meaning they're effectively part of my document, and I'd like to have a say how they look like, the same as form elements.

Funny, I just replied to TheZenPsycho and mentioned in an aside that I recall older IE versions (and possibly recent ones as well) did allow the content author to apply styles to the scrollbar with CSS. I have had mixed feelings about that but in general, I would agree with you that it should be open to styling.

I agree because I assume the scrollbar would retain its functionality. By styling it, I don't lose, for example, individual adjustment buttons at each extreme, drag to scroll, and paging by clicking the empty space on a Windows PC.

On the other hand, if I style it, I'd probably want to do so in a context-sensitive manner, applying a specific look for mouse-enabled contexts and another for touch-enabled contexts. And then I end up have to make the same decisions Apple and Microsoft have had to. :)

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#88

Post by bhauer »

millstone wrote: post #85
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle I agree with you. In this case apple's decision causes actual problems with content. Putting stuff in a scrollable iframe, or overflow scroll pane now involves carefully instructing people on how to scroll it. Or you force your own custom scrollbars. Or just not have scrollable panes-- you could argue that is a good thing, but sometimes they are unavoidable. Like, for instance, here on HN if someone happ…

In Safari, there's no visual indication that the content is horizontally scrollable. That's a problem. In Firefox, there's a big scroll bar. This scroll bar consumes more visual space than the content it scrolls. That's an absurdity. Scrollbars are a legacy UI element, a throwback to an era before scrolling mice and trackpads. You nicely illustrated a problem, but your proposed solution makes no sense on modern compu…

> Scrollbars are a legacy UI element, a throwback to an era before scrolling mice and trackpads

I think there's disagreement about that here, which in a manner of speaking, is behind the mixed opinions expressed in this thread.

I for one do not seek a browser without a scrollbar even though my mouse has a scroll-wheel. Making very large adjustments to my scroll position using the wheel is annoying: either I spin the wheel repetitively or I click the wheel and enter a scroll mode where the pointer's distance from a start point adjusts a velocity of scroll that continues until I click again. Both are much more fussy than just picking the scrollbar tack up and dragging it to the point I want to reach.

I don't even like that in IE 10 (Metro) the scrollbar disappears on my Surface Pro with its touch screen. Luckily for me, IE 10 (desktop) retains the scrollbar.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#89

Post by comex »

mattstocum wrote: post #58
Semaphor wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially since NiceScroll isn't very nice. The scrolling is jerky. Interesting, on what devices? We are using NiceScroll for a widget right now and it's very smooth, even on my Nexus 4.

On my MacBook Pro it's bad. The scrolling is jerky and doesn't feel right, like there's too much inertia and too much momentum, and you can't stop it once it's scrolling. On iOS there is to little momentum. There's also no point in it. Safari already scrolls web pages, why re-implement it in javascript? You're also losing new features OS X 10.9 does under the hood, like pre-rendering off-screen content to enable smoo…

Yep. It's not enough to maintain 60fps (which, even in 2013, isn't always possible); if you don't want scrolling through a large amount of content to feel weird and unnatural, you really should copy the native acceleration curve, something which I have yet to see done for iOS (even Apple's own JavaScript has screwed this up). Since iOS at least has supported -webkit-overflow-scrolling: touch for years now, there's usually no point.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#90

Post by jfb »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #49
bhauer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Not to put to fine a point on it, but if your user is on iOS or OS X, they are accustomed to losing sight of their progress because, as the article says, "Apple knows best." Going out of your way as a content author to correct for the user interface quirks of the reader's preferred reading environment seems extraordinary and unnecessary. Presumably a non-trivial number of iOS and OS X users actually like the…

It's my preferred reading environment, but I hate that apple made this decision, because, as my sibling commenter here noted, it's outright user hostile. Apple never really totally understood the "visibility" requirement of usable interfaces. They like to hide things to make them look pretty, and it only leads to better advertising, not better interfaces. Thankfully there's still a setting to always show scrollbars.…

What is user hostile is some application developer contravening the platform's UI conventions without a very, very good reason. "Because I want everything to work the same across platforms" is not nearly sufficient. I dislike this very, very much and I go out of my way to avoid using software that does this. This problem is particularly awful on the web, and this is a big part of the reason I avoid web applications wherever possible.
Post reply on HN