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Don't reinvent the scrollbar

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Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#101

Post by dirkgently »

millstone wrote: post #96
bhauer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scrollbars are a legacy UI element, a throwback to an era before scrolling mice and trackpads I think there's disagreement about that here, which in a manner of speaking, is behind the mixed opinions expressed in this thread. I for one do not seek a browser without a scrollbar even though my mouse has a scroll-wheel. Making very large adjustments to my scroll position using the wheel is annoying: either I spin the…

Good points. I should revise what I wrote to touch-enabled scrolling hardware. With a scroll wheel, both fine and gross movements are more difficult. The scroll wheel has a fixed set of positions, and is optimized for scrolling a line or two at a time. I also have never liked the modal "scroll mode" that you describe. With a magic mouse or scrolling trackpad, you get a much larger surface area available for scrolling…

> I'm not sure what the situation is like on Windows though.

Us poor Windows users have to hike few miles, find the cursor, lift and carry it on the back for a mile to get it to where we want it to, and then place it there. After all that, the page moves an inch.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#102

Post by x0054 »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #72
madeofpalk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it comes down to personal taste. I for one like that they hide away, and I can bring them back just by holding down for two fingers on my trackpad. Thankfully you can make scroll bars persistent in System Preferences.

The "personal taste" argument comes up a lot in usability conversations. I find it to be incredibly weak. I might personally prefer to walk blindfolded across busy roadways. But that doesn't make it broadly easy or advisable. It's just simply a bad decision. There shouldn't be a preference, it should just be on by default, end of story. It only makes sense on iPads. The fact that it's auto-hide by default means that…

This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not having any scroll bars on is preference because the only one it effects is the user.

I think a more important question is, what kind of design are you using that people can not instinctually figure out that they need to scroll? If your site needs to be scrolled horizontally (and its not painfully obvious that that's the case) it's a bad design. And if your user can not figure out that they need to scroll vertically, the are an idiot, or it's a truly bad design. In the former case, stop catering to the stupidest 5% of the population. Just like with people who use IE 7 in 2013, you'll never be able to properly serve them. And if its because of your design, redesign the damn site rather then pushing your preference onto the user.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#103

Post by andrewvc »

mbell wrote: post #92
millstone wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scrolling interface is always visible. It's just on the input device instead of the screen. Originally, the scroll bar itself was the interface. You scrolled by clicking the little arrows, or by grabbing the scroll thumb and dragging. But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary. And with the advent of trackpad magic/mouse scrolling, which support both horizontal and vertical scrol…

For the most part I agree, I like what OSX does. However, there are edge cases which are infuriating. Have you tried to scroll through an HTML in Chrome on OSX? The only word I can use to describe the experience is 'rage'.

True, but select multiple is horrible. It's easy to code but my god is it unusable.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#104

Post by TheZenPsycho »

x0054 wrote: post #102
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "personal taste" argument comes up a lot in usability conversations. I find it to be incredibly weak. I might personally prefer to walk blindfolded across busy roadways. But that doesn't make it broadly easy or advisable. It's just simply a bad decision. There shouldn't be a preference, it should just be on by default, end of story. It only makes sense on iPads. The fact that it's auto-hide by default means that…

This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not…

I'm sorry, what smacks of fascism? The choice, in this case, is Apple's, inflicted on all of its customers.

If anything that is not obviously harmful can be reduced to mere "preference" then what is the point of hiring designers? just deliver raw html code and a textfield for users to write in their own css, right?

Of course, I admit this is reducing the argument to absurdity, but so is calling my position "fascism".

In truth, as product designers we make all kinds of decisions on behalf of our users. We use a system of judgement to rank the "goodness" and the "badness" of those decisions based on whether they make our user's lives easier or harder. (or make us more or less money, depending on your ethos)

In what way does hiding the scrollbar improve anyone's lives? In the cases where it demonstrably makes user's lives harder, explain why that doesn't matter?

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#105

Post by onedev »

OSX/iOS hiding the scrollbar is not that big of a deal. You can tap the trackpad/touchscreen to get it to re-appear again so you know how far along the page you are when you need to.

It's not a problem that needs solving. OSX/iOS users are very used to this and it is second nature.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#106

Post by x0054 »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #104
x0054 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not…

I'm sorry, what smacks of fascism? The choice, in this case, is Apple's, inflicted on all of its customers. If anything that is not obviously harmful can be reduced to mere "preference" then what is the point of hiring designers? just deliver raw html code and a textfield for users to write in their own css, right? Of course, I admit this is reducing the argument to absurdity, but so is calling my position "fascism".…

Some people argue that Apple limits the users by not giving them enough options. You are of the opinion that Apple provides entirely too many user options. Not only should the users always have scroll bars on, but they also should not have the ability to turn them off. (correct me if I misunderstood)

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#107

Post by UntitledNo4 »

freejack wrote: post #78
gkoberger wrote: post #9

While I hate that Apple hides the scrollbar when not in use for the main page, the new iOS-inspired scrollbar looks much nicer when designing scrolling divs inside the page. [Note: never said anything about custom scrollbars; just that websites with scrolling divs tend to look better on OSX]

Are you a mouse user or do you use a touchpad? I have a theory that the new OSX scrollbars only really work for touchpad users and everyone with a mouse hates them ;)

I'm a Mac user using a mouse and I love them, sorry.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#108

Post by johnchristopher »

millstone wrote: post #83
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my preferred reading environment, but I hate that apple made this decision, because, as my sibling commenter here noted, it's outright user hostile. Apple never really totally understood the "visibility" requirement of usable interfaces. They like to hide things to make them look pretty, and it only leads to better advertising, not better interfaces. Thankfully there's still a setting to always show scrollbars.…

The scrolling interface is always visible. It's just on the input device instead of the screen. Originally, the scroll bar itself was the interface. You scrolled by clicking the little arrows, or by grabbing the scroll thumb and dragging. But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary. And with the advent of trackpad magic/mouse scrolling, which support both horizontal and vertical scrol…

So far I only met trackpad magic/mouse scrolling on a mac or laptop. That leaves a lot of desktop computers out.

I am typing this on a iMac 2006 and even if the mouse has a wheel I still grab the bar because it's more precise (it allows to put the text where I want) than scrolling (which just increments height offset by a proportional fixed value).

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#109

Post by telepoiss »

Am I the only one who actually likes this approach of having horizontal progress-bar on articles? Its not a scrollbar as it fills up from the left rather than moving a small block across the screen. Living here in Northern Europe I've always read left to right and counting percentages 0>100 seems more natural to visualize left>right rather than top>down.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#110

Post by sbuk »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #74
bhauer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you--I prefer for the scrollbar to remain visible. In my preferred reading environment, a Windows PC running Firefox, it does remain visible. I like clean design, but not at the expense of function. I am firmly of the opinion that too much functionality has been sacrificed from modern user interfaces at the altar of simplicity. I'm nevertheless of the point of view that the content author should…

In principle I agree with you. In this case apple's decision causes actual problems with content. Putting stuff in a scrollable iframe, or overflow scroll pane now involves carefully instructing people on how to scroll it. Or you force your own custom scrollbars. Or just not have scrollable panes-- you could argue that is a good thing, but sometimes they are unavoidable. Like, for instance, here on HN if someone happ…

I believe it to be neither and as a counterpoint ask if it really is a problem as you frame it. Scrolling on a touch enabled device, and all Apple devices are supplied touch enabled in one way or another, is performed differently. It is instinctive using OS X to scroll with 2 fingers. Obviously, this is a learned behaviour for adults that have been around computers for a while, but an intuitive one none the less. The old paradigm of scrollbar with arrows and thumb is redundant with touch input, to the point it actually gets in the way. What we have now in OS X and iOS serves more as a page location indicator that occupies the same position in the container.
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