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Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

theguardian.com

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Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#211

Post by samstave »

smsm42 wrote: post #204
samstave wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

>>> The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". That's because you have been taught that legal is roughly equivalent to right which is roughly equivalent to moral. US culture is very legalistic. All warning signs say "Don't do this - it's the LAW!" - because once it's the law, it is absolute, that's where it ends. But I can bet nobody taught you - unless you're some rare exception - why things a…

Thanks, I really liked your response.

I fully understand why laws are put in place when they are done so in an empirical fashion e.g. for your safety, ensuring certain codes are followed that ensure structrual soundness of a building, etc.

The problem is when we get people like Holder talking about how it is "legal" for the POTUS to use a drone to murder people in a foreign, supposedly, sovereign nation - even when those people are citizens of the US.

This is where I get confused on the value of "legality".

Insider trading by members of congress is "legal".

Fraudulent foreclosure has been "legal"

When what banks and governments do, while wrong, is called "legal" -- I cannot bring myself to respect anything they represent.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#212

Post by thoughtsimple »

makomk wrote: post #83
kghose wrote: post #62

I have a counter-current question (and I feel that this should be a legitimate site for asking such questions, because we are all hackers here). Were lavabit, groklaw profitable and/or widely popular? Is it possible that these are sites that are not profitable and would have been shutdown anyway but which are now using privacy as an excuse for shutting down? This does not excuse the misuse of governmental powers, but…

Groklaw was widely popular a few years ago; this is the most attention they've got in years. Since they've basically never covered anything secret in their entire existence, and PJ has apparently done ethically questionable things in the past to keep attention on herself, pardon me if I'm a bit suspicious about this. (For example, she supposedly shadowbanned not just commenters who disagreed with her, but supporters…

While I'm not a fan of the recent direction of Groklaw (probably irrelevant now), I think it is a stretch to claim that PJ has done ethically questionable things without some citations. What things?

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#213

Post by anigbrowl »

samstave wrote: post #191
anigbrowl wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in. I think your assessment of the world is significantly inaccurate.

I'd LOVE to have my view changed. Would you care to provide your assessment of the world? Seriously. Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. (I first became politically aware when I watched everything related to Iran-Contra with my father.) It has been nothing but rinse-and-repeat of the same shit since that time. (2008 bankin…

Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie.

Sure it has. Every last little thing.

Now if you said that there always seems to be some scandal going on, then guess what, I agree with you. And guess what, that sort of shit has been going on since the founding of the Republic. And guess what, you can find shenanigans in the history of every monarchic, theocratic and republican government all the way back to ancient Rome and beyond. There is no Garden of Eden from which we've been expelled or Golden Age that we've lost, there's only your personal loss of innocence about how flawed humans are.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#214

Post by rayiner »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #210
rayiner wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does n…

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. The slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Trouble is, government is not a logical entity.

That's cute but totally nonsensical. Logical fallacies are incorrect modes of inference in logical arguments. It's the people who are doing the arguing that must be logical, not the subject matter of the argument.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#215

Post by anigbrowl »

samstave wrote: post #207
anigbrowl wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems more appropriate for Infowars or Godlike productions, especially your use of such acronyms as 'MIC' - a shorthand for 'men in charge' rather than any actual organization. Standardizing the terminology of conspiracy theories is a substitute for testing and validation. I dispute your CIA conspiracy theory and suggest such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you have failed to provide a…

MIC: Military industrial complex. It is a real thing. http://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-mili... > I dispute your CIA conspiracy theory and suggest such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you have failed to provide and which is not supported by the historical record. Also, I'm not American and didn't grow up here Yeah, so you really are unaware of what has happened in the…

MIC: Military industrial complex. It is a real thing.

It is not 'a real thing.' It is an opinion (a perfectly valid one, I might add) about socio-political structures. There are many such lobbies in the body politic, and the existence of such sociopolitical factions have been observed by writers from Aristotle onwards. Cozy relationships, mutual interests, and even corruption falls far short of the sort of coup you purport to describe.

Yeah, so you really are unaware of what has happened in the US.

Not in the least - I read War is a racket and studied the Business Conspiracy many long years ago, thank you. You are the one making the case for an overarching conspiracy, it's up to you to offer up evidence for it. Namechecking this or that data point in history with no attempt at perspective isn't evidence, it's handwaving; and responding to requests for evidence with accusations of ignorance isn't argument, it's propaganda.

I do not object to your criticizing this government or government institutions in general, but I am sick to the back teeth of your axe-grinding, crappy sources, and empty arguments. Pardon my bluntness, but you're an outrage junkie. You like being angry about 'how bad things are' to the extent that you have adopted it as a premise.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#216

Post by mpyne »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #193
rayiner wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does n…

You're getting better at this "This isn't America's worst; look at history" argument. I can tell it's been used on Hacker News quite a bit before :)

And yet it's not an "argument" so much as the cold, solid truth. There is like a 23-page DoJ PDF about the legal theory behind the NSA programs being discussed, an ongoing conversation at the POTUS level, an introductory guide by the NSA themselves into how some of those systems are meant to work, and much more.

If this is a police state, it's not a police state that I've ever read about in my history books. You think Putin is patiently explaining to all of his Russian citizens (and Snowden) the exact niceties of why their suveillance systems are needed to fight Chechnya-based Islamism, and patiently debating with parliamentarians in the Duma?

Even The Guardian notes how they preferred the U.S. to the U.K. to work their stories. Only in America would this type of thing even possibly be a debate the way it is.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#217

Post by CamperBob2 »

rayiner wrote: post #214
CamperBob2 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. The slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Trouble is, government is not a logical entity.

That's cute but totally nonsensical. Logical fallacies are incorrect modes of inference in logical arguments. It's the people who are doing the arguing that must be logical, not the subject matter of the argument.

It's the people who are doing the arguing that must be logical, not the subject matter of the argument.

I don't follow you. If the system you're interacting with isn't logical in nature, then it's not useful to place logical constraints on it. You simply have no idea whether a slippery slope mechanism is at work.

If the people in charge are trying to nudge the Overton Window, then the slippery slope argument is an excellent description of the process at work.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#218

Post by samstave »

anigbrowl wrote: post #213
samstave wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd LOVE to have my view changed. Would you care to provide your assessment of the world? Seriously. Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. (I first became politically aware when I watched everything related to Iran-Contra with my father.) It has been nothing but rinse-and-repeat of the same shit since that time. (2008 bankin…

Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. Sure it has. Every last little thing. Now if you said that there always seems to be some scandal going on, then guess what, I agree with you. And guess what, that sort of shit has been going on since the founding of the Republic. And guess what, you can find shenanigans in the history of…

>Sure it has. Every last little thing.

Pedantic.

With respect to every major event, and every scandal; the position of the USG has invariably been proven to be false.

Iran-Contra, S&L, Gulf War, Iraq War, 2008 banking scandal, NSA (no not wittingly).

So - while you think I am an "outrage junkie" -- how about I actually have principals and fuck the USG and others who are unscrupulous assholes.

Yeah - I am upset about what is going on, and it's funny because you're comments are of the opinion I should just "get over it and realize that humans suck".

Sorry, that's not a position I'll take.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#219

Post by mpyne »

gosub wrote: post #137
samstave wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oppression 2.0 - it is unevenly distributed.

Misquoting William Gibson: "The fascism is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."

In essence, that was David Simon's argument in favor of things like PRISM, (paraphrasing) 'Finally an equal-opportunity way for the Iron Boot of Law to be applied!'.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#220

Post by samstave »

anigbrowl wrote: post #213
samstave wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd LOVE to have my view changed. Would you care to provide your assessment of the world? Seriously. Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. (I first became politically aware when I watched everything related to Iran-Contra with my father.) It has been nothing but rinse-and-repeat of the same shit since that time. (2008 bankin…

Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. Sure it has. Every last little thing. Now if you said that there always seems to be some scandal going on, then guess what, I agree with you. And guess what, that sort of shit has been going on since the founding of the Republic. And guess what, you can find shenanigans in the history of…

You also failed to share your worldview as I had requested. I'd be certainly interested in hearing it articulated in a comment as opposed to the way you're just refuting mine.
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