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Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

theguardian.com

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Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#201

Post by mbreese »

samstave wrote: post #180
rayiner wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does n…

I talk abou the last 13 years because it was a coup by the intelligence apparatus, led by the Agents of the Carlyle Group to brazenly take over the american military completely. I know a lot of what was done in the last 50 years - and in the last 40, there has been one agency specifically working night and day to subvert the structure of the government, and led by a few people. The CIA, since its inception after WWII…

Even if you have other valid points, please take the conspiracy theories elsewhere. It just weakens your argument.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#202

Post by anigbrowl »

samstave wrote: post #180
rayiner wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does n…

I talk abou the last 13 years because it was a coup by the intelligence apparatus, led by the Agents of the Carlyle Group to brazenly take over the american military completely. I know a lot of what was done in the last 50 years - and in the last 40, there has been one agency specifically working night and day to subvert the structure of the government, and led by a few people. The CIA, since its inception after WWII…

This seems more appropriate for Infowars or Godlike productions, especially your use of such acronyms as 'MIC' - a shorthand for 'men in charge' rather than any actual organization. Standardizing the terminology of conspiracy theories is a substitute for testing and validation.

I dispute your CIA conspiracy theory and suggest such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you have failed to provide and which is not supported by the historical record. Also, I'm not American and didn't grow up here, so please don't fall back on the usual counterargument that I'm too conditioned to see what you have convinced yourself to be obvious.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#203

Post by samstave »

mbreese wrote: post #201
samstave wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talk abou the last 13 years because it was a coup by the intelligence apparatus, led by the Agents of the Carlyle Group to brazenly take over the american military completely. I know a lot of what was done in the last 50 years - and in the last 40, there has been one agency specifically working night and day to subvert the structure of the government, and led by a few people. The CIA, since its inception after WWII…

Even if you have other valid points, please take the conspiracy theories elsewhere. It just weakens your argument.

You're calling it a conspiracy theory simply because you have not followed what has actually happened.

Every thing I wrote there is actual history.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#204

Post by smsm42 »

samstave wrote: post #156
bostonpete wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like "We are 100% completely corrupt", "Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered", and "America is dead" are so absurdly over the top that they undercut your message and turn off people who might otherwise be receptive to your comments.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

>>> The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal".

That's because you have been taught that legal is roughly equivalent to right which is roughly equivalent to moral. US culture is very legalistic. All warning signs say "Don't do this - it's the LAW!" - because once it's the law, it is absolute, that's where it ends.

But I can bet nobody taught you - unless you're some rare exception - why things are or should be legal and where the "legal" comes from. US is unique in this regard as it was founded by people who actually thought about this question a lot - unlike most of other countries - and made a set of documents available - including, obviously, the Constitution, but also other works - that explain what they thought and why. But it is only a set of texts, each person has to find for himself/herself where their basic principles are and why the law must be such and not other. If the law has no basis under it, then what you feel is inevitable - since the law can be taken from you and perverted and made to say whatever people in power want it to say - and if you don't know what is beyond the law you have nothing left. You may not even be able to explain why what they are doing is wrong - after all, they have the law on their side, aren't they?

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#205

Post by pdonis »

samstave wrote: post #197
pdonis wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we are making zero progress as a species toward a free reality Oh, please. You yourself are providing an obvious piece of evidence against this claim: here you are, posting on HN about how disappointed you are with the US government. People used to have to be rich and/or politically connected to put their thoughts in a place where they could be read by a large audience. Another piece of evidence is the fact that we a…

Right, so we should all just sit back and let things go the way they are going because I am an uppity little whiner that wants to be able to have a conversation with someone who lives far away without the ability to have that conversation brought up by an NSA subcontractor at any point in MY FUCKING LIFETIME in the future? Here is some perspective: The NSA is seeking to keep everything that anyone says for the durati…

we should all just sit back and let things go the way they are

Did I say that? I was not saying things are good; I was saying that your claim that we are making zero progress towards a more free humanity is too extreme. We have tools today to fight this that past generations did not have; that's progress.

And we are to expect that things are going to get better from here on out?

Obviously they won't if we ignore the fact that change is not one-sided. The Internet gives governments more ability to snoop, but it also gives us more ability to communicate and coordinate. I think you are concentrating too much on the former and not enough on the latter.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#206

Post by mabhatter »

alan_cx wrote: post #30

I hope those who treated me with scorn for suggesting the politicians and business people are effectively blackmailed by the mere existence of NSA type spying can now see it for real. No direct threat, not conversation, no deals. Just the fear of the knowledge that one is being comprehensively watched, and what "they" might have. This fear is enough to alter behavior, to conform. Again, at what stage can we describe…

I would put money that PJ was hacked illegally by large corporations long before the NSA took an interest in her. And that the government knew all about it. She mentions her apartment being broken into... That was almost certainly the work of powers she irked.

In fact PJ is probably the ONE person they have investigated and CHOSE not to bother. She probably had several illegal taps on her stuff way back when she started...this has been gearing up almost as long as Groklaw has been in business and we all "knew" about it, just didn't believe it. The only thing worse than speaking out against the government is speaking out against companies... And she's been doing that for years.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#207

Post by samstave »

anigbrowl wrote: post #202
samstave wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talk abou the last 13 years because it was a coup by the intelligence apparatus, led by the Agents of the Carlyle Group to brazenly take over the american military completely. I know a lot of what was done in the last 50 years - and in the last 40, there has been one agency specifically working night and day to subvert the structure of the government, and led by a few people. The CIA, since its inception after WWII…

This seems more appropriate for Infowars or Godlike productions, especially your use of such acronyms as 'MIC' - a shorthand for 'men in charge' rather than any actual organization. Standardizing the terminology of conspiracy theories is a substitute for testing and validation. I dispute your CIA conspiracy theory and suggest such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you have failed to provide a…

MIC: Military industrial complex.

It is a real thing.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-mili...

>I dispute your CIA conspiracy theory and suggest such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you have failed to provide and which is not supported by the historical record. Also, I'm not American and didn't grow up here

Yeah, so you really are unaware of what has happened in the US. Everything I said IS a part of "historical Record" -- but not the one you'll find on CNN or FOX. You'll actually have to do some investigation and discovery.

Start with Smedley Butler, Operation Paperclip and work from there.

I'd be happy to lay out more info - and you can find some in my comment history.

Just because YOU have no idea what happened doesn't mean that what I say is false, nor that it is suddenly my job to educate you.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#208

Post by jodrellblank »

Hmm. A lot of people supposedly operated under the belief that an omnipotent, judgmental entity was watching their every move, in its own interests, to decide their eternal fate.

Turns out, a nearly omnipotent judgmental entity is watching a big handful of things, working in your interest, only looking for terrorism and national threats.

Suddenly faced with this kind of thing as a reality instead of just paying lip service to the idea, a lot of people... don't like it.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#209

Post by smsm42 »

bishop_mandible wrote: post #77

Just out of curiosity: What interest could the NSA possibly have in Groklaw mails?

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/316445-d...

The Justice Department on Friday released its legal rationale for why all U.S. phone calls are "relevant" to terrorism investigations.

Same applies to emails. You may not know it, but USDOJ thinks your emails - all of them, including github commit notifications - are relevant for terrorism investigations. Because they can. Remember - "yes, we can!"? You've been warned. Did you listen?

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#210

Post by CamperBob2 »

rayiner wrote: post #170
samstave wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does n…

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

Trouble is, government is not a logical entity.

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