Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping • Hacker News Board

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#191

Post by samstave » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 7:59 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #187

samstave wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in. I think your assessment of the world is significantly inaccurate.

I'd LOVE to have my view changed. Would you care to provide your assessment of the world? Seriously.

Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. (I first became politically aware when I watched everything related to Iran-Contra with my father.)

It has been nothing but rinse-and-repeat of the same shit since that time. (2008 banking scandal? Try the SNL scandal of 80's)

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#192

Post by forgottenpaswrd » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

lmickh wrote: post #64

walshemj wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but in the us freedom of speech is not universally applied ie you employer can sack you for what you say for example "oh maybe we should organize a union" or maybe "the NHS model is a good idea" Any changes need to apply universally and not just to the government.

That is pretty much the definition of freedom of speech universally applied. You are free to say what you want and your employer is free to say things like "you're fired." Freedom of speech != speech without consequence.

But if your employer says "You are fired" he will need someone to replace you.

Most people don't know that in some jobs it takes half a year or an entire year of salary to train someone new to their new job until they start being productive to the company.

It is also something employers do not love to do, firing people is hard emotionally. Most of them are not sociopaths.

How do I know? I had been and I am "employer" myself.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#193

Post by dylangs1030 » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:01 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #170

samstave wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does n…

You're getting better at this "This isn't America's worst; look at history" argument. I can tell it's been used on Hacker News quite a bit before :)

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#194

Post by pdonis » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:02 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #186

hyperventilator wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You drastically overestimate the government. The US gov can be taken down from the inside if the people want to. They don't want to. Every human alive today has more power at their fingertips than a King a hundred years ago, but go ahead and believe that this is the worst it has ever been, it is a popular fantasy.

Actually I am in no way saying it is the worst it has ever been. I am saying that we are making zero progress as a species toward a free reality, and this is unacceptable. Just because this version of America is "better than any other place" doesn't mean it is good. I refuse to accept such apologistic BS. Yeah it was worse. It is still bad and that is simply not acceptable.

we are making zero progress as a species toward a free reality

Oh, please. You yourself are providing an obvious piece of evidence against this claim: here you are, posting on HN about how disappointed you are with the US government. People used to have to be rich and/or politically connected to put their thoughts in a place where they could be read by a large audience.

Another piece of evidence is the fact that we are here discussing a public statement about the impact the NSA's activities are having on a service that provided significant value. A few decades ago the NSA was doing the same things they're doing now, but if it affected a particular individual, how were they going to get the word out? What newspaper would publish it? Now we don't have to rely on the media to get the word out.

I get that you're concerned, but please try to keep things in perspective.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#195

Post by LoganCale » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:06 PM UTC

random42 wrote: post #9

toyg wrote: post #6

This is a tragedy. We need to reboot email. Encrypt everything, including metadata -- given current hardware, the client can easily bruteforce it from a list of known keys. Build some sort of easy key distribution tool (connecting via p2p, dns, whatever, just build a goddamn UI). Ask existing transports to relax their restrictions enough to let fully-encrypted mail through, and build some intelligent webmail interfac…

I disagree. This is a political fight. Technical means can drag the resistance longer, which is helpful, but the political system needs to be put in checks and balances against becoming a police state. There is no substitute of "taking roads and doing peaceful protests" as out of comfort zone they might be. We sometimes fall in love with our methods because that is what _we_ are good at, not what is necessarily the b…

Email is inherently insecure and leaks all sorts of data even when the message content is encrypted to not just the government but everyone the message passes through on its way to the destination. This is a technical flaw.

The ability of the government to warrantlessly look at it is a political flaw and should also be corrected, but that doesn't mean the technical flaws should also be corrected.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#196

Post by hyperventilator » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:08 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #186

hyperventilator wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You drastically overestimate the government. The US gov can be taken down from the inside if the people want to. They don't want to. Every human alive today has more power at their fingertips than a King a hundred years ago, but go ahead and believe that this is the worst it has ever been, it is a popular fantasy.

Actually I am in no way saying it is the worst it has ever been. I am saying that we are making zero progress as a species toward a free reality, and this is unacceptable. Just because this version of America is "better than any other place" doesn't mean it is good. I refuse to accept such apologistic BS. Yeah it was worse. It is still bad and that is simply not acceptable.

I disagree. We are making progress towards a more free society. Would I like to see more progress, of course and so would most people but they are not going be in favor of trashing the economy and putting their families at risk over a theoretical increase in progress. I do agree that laws cannot be secret for obvious reasons, but I am not sure you can have no secrets.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#197

Post by samstave » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #194

samstave wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I am in no way saying it is the worst it has ever been. I am saying that we are making zero progress as a species toward a free reality, and this is unacceptable. Just because this version of America is "better than any other place" doesn't mean it is good. I refuse to accept such apologistic BS. Yeah it was worse. It is still bad and that is simply not acceptable.

we are making zero progress as a species toward a free reality Oh, please. You yourself are providing an obvious piece of evidence against this claim: here you are, posting on HN about how disappointed you are with the US government. People used to have to be rich and/or politically connected to put their thoughts in a place where they could be read by a large audience. Another piece of evidence is the fact that we a…

Right, so we should all just sit back and let things go the way they are going because I am an uppity little whiner that wants to be able to have a conversation with someone who lives far away without the ability to have that conversation brought up by an NSA subcontractor at any point in MY FUCKING LIFETIME in the future?

Here is some perspective: The NSA is seeking to keep everything that anyone says for the duration of their entire life such that it is searchable whenever they want. That's downright dystopian.

And we are to expect that things are going to get better from here on out?

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#198

Post by dylangs1030 » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:13 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #30

I hope those who treated me with scorn for suggesting the politicians and business people are effectively blackmailed by the mere existence of NSA type spying can now see it for real. No direct threat, not conversation, no deals. Just the fear of the knowledge that one is being comprehensively watched, and what "they" might have. This fear is enough to alter behavior, to conform. Again, at what stage can we describe…

Look in a textbook at the definitions of "fascist" and "police state" - then read about Hitler's Germany (fascism) and the Cold War KGB (police state). You could even read about Stalin too.

Then you'll know at what point we can call the United States and the United Kingdom fascist and police states.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#199

Post by just_a_drive_by » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:13 PM UTC

efuquen wrote: post #169

samstave wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

Reality check, the NSA, Bush and increasingly Obama, the whole US Government and it's justice system, etc. don't represent the American ideal. But with a few exceptions I would wager that I would rather live here then almost any other country in the world. What is "American" comes from you and what you viewpoint is of that ideal. For me what constitutes as American has much more to do with my relationships with peopl…

So it's not bad enough yet? I have watched everything the progressive left has warned America about for the last twenty five years come true and at every turn I have heard the same thing, "You are overreacting."

Media Consolidation, NAFTA, GATT, WTO, Glass Steagall, etc.

The issue that Groklaw broaches specifically is one that has major consequences. Change in America comes from upstarts, individuals who put their fear aside and try new things. Things that often throw a wrench into the works of established economic interests. What is now being made clear is that any plans you make might just find their way into the hands of your disruptee.

PJ makes clear that she is scared, and to you it may not be rational, but that's not the point. She was willing to put herself at the front of a machine that regularly goes toe to toe with powerful entities. But now she is not and how many others will not even try in this current environment?

I am surrounded by young people and the prevailing attitude is that the game is rigged, why even try? I've watched progressives grow older and walk away as soon as they realized that they had something to lose and that their opponents are vindictive.

When that fear sinks in, it is over. No one does anything except the privileged who can't fail.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#200

Post by mbreese » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 8:14 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #119

mbreese wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Groklaw's main work wasn't revealing how broken tech IP law was, it was revealing how stupid one company was for trying to manipulate the system. In the SCO vs. IBM case, I'd say that the system worked pretty well. Coverage of which didn't really include much (any?) help from confidential sources.

> Groklaw's main work wasn't revealing how broken tech IP law was, it was revealing how stupid one company was for trying to manipulate the system. That was its founding purpose, to be sure, but its main work had moved on from the "how stupid one company was" thing for quite some time. > Coverage of which didn't really include much (any?) help from confidential sources. I'm not sure why this is in your response to my…

I haven't visited Groklaw in a long time, and I suspect that many other have the same habits. After SCO, I wonder what their readership numbers have been. They will always be associated with that trial.

The reason why their lack of confidential sources is relevant is that closing up Groklaw because of the NSA doesn't make sense. Their sources were largely from law filings and (very good) analysis. Closing up shop because their email could be snooped just doesn't make sense.

There could be other, valid, reasons, but this just doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps PJ wants to get off the Internet because of the NSA, and I'd buy that. But it just didn't seem like protecting the email of confidential sources was that central to their operation.

Also, it doesn't seem like the NYT or other major newspapers are closing up shop. There are other ways to get confidential information other than email, if you are truly concerned by the NSA.