Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy • Hacker News Board

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#91

Post by lukifer » Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 10:21 AM UTC

berntb wrote: post #89

lukifer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky has always been open about the fact that he believes the moral thing to do is criticize and scrutinize one's own nation and government first, because that is where you have the highest possibility of influence. Despite being atheist/agnostic, he takes this principle straight from the Bible: "How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your ow…

>> one's own nation and government first, because that is where you have the highest possibility of influence. (Chomsky is probably bigger outside USA. E.g. the Milosevic regime was a big fan.) I don't really care why an analysis have very different standards for different countries/companies/etc, that just isn't a quality sign... It doesn't seem more serious if the double standards are motivated by "Hey, I'm a self-…

Criticism is not hate. It is criticism. It can come from friends, enemies, or yourself.

Also, Chomsky has always been severely critical of authoritarian and violent regimes across the world; the reason he has focused disproportionally on American regimes is due to the moral principle I referenced above.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#92

Post by berntb » Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 10:48 AM UTC

lukifer wrote: post #91

berntb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> one's own nation and government first, because that is where you have the highest possibility of influence. (Chomsky is probably bigger outside USA. E.g. the Milosevic regime was a big fan.) I don't really care why an analysis have very different standards for different countries/companies/etc, that just isn't a quality sign... It doesn't seem more serious if the double standards are motivated by "Hey, I'm a self-…

Criticism is not hate. It is criticism. It can come from friends, enemies, or yourself. Also, Chomsky has always been severely critical of authoritarian and violent regimes across the world; the reason he has focused disproportionally on American regimes is due to the moral principle I referenced above.

A recap seems correct here:

1. I point out that Chomsky's motivation for not engaging in Sudan's problems (no influence) are just not serious; his involvement would have very probably made a big difference and potentially saved many lives.

2. You claim that Chomsky think it is more important to complain about USA. (+)

3. I answer that I don't really care why someone has double standards for different groups/countries/religions/etc.

4. You play linguistic games with half of a term I use ("self-hater").

5. I say bye bye.

(+) Not relevant anyway, except as a form of explanation of why, not an argument Chomsky's position was serious.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#93

Post by mikeash » Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 2:17 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #88

mikeash wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Approximately all of it is wrong. The USA is exceptional precisely because it's the most powerful, and nothing more.

That's what you're claming American think, or that's what you think?

That's what I think. Many Americans in my experience believe the "American exceptionalism" described there, in terms of the country being uniquely classless, or free, or whatever.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#94

Post by dnautics » Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 7:18 PM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #84

dnautics wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

don't be so smug. It almost happened, with kim dot com.

Though one could argue there is a big difference between "actually has and is continuing to be so" and "almost, maybe, kinda, sorta"

unquestionably, and to their credit the New Zealand authorities brought an end to the farce in a timely fashion. But, the statistics of small numbers can be deceptive. Certainly, in the US, plenty of farcical prosecutions are halted, but there are also plenty of counterexamples. And the population of the US is nearly 100x the population of new zealand.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#95

Post by michaelbuddy » Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 9:33 PM UTC

"What would Chomsky do?" isn't a bad first question to ask on all geopolitical matters.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#96

Post by kaonashi » Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 9:36 PM UTC

jes wrote: post #70

kaonashi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Says the Ayn Rand disciple. Anti-government is great, unless it's anti-American government, then it's treason.

Objectivism is not anti-government, and indeed, sees government as necessary in order to protect the rights of individuals (all individuals) from those who would otherwise violate them.

Right, it's just power worship. So government in service of the powerful at the expense of the weak is a-ok; the converse, evil.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#97

Post by peterashford » Tue, Jul 30, 2013, 12:45 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #83

peterashford wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, us New Zealanders have kidnapped lots of US citizens and handed them over for torture in opposition of own laws. We've established an overseas prison explicitly to hold people who would have rights if we imprisoned them locally. But, you know, it's cool : all states do the same thing.

don't be so smug. It almost happened, with kim dot com.

Kim was kidnapped by NZ, really? I must have missed that.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#98

Post by dllthomas » Tue, Jul 30, 2013, 3:54 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #44

dllthomas wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/27/books/l-chomsky-and-the-kh... His further assertion that Noam Chomsky attributed the deaths of the Pol Pot era to ''nothing but'' a war-induced famine is an outright lie. Mr. Chomsky (and the present writer, who was co-author with Mr. Chomsky of his published works on Cambodia) went to great pains to stress that there was no doubt that the Khmer Rouge was committing serious crimes, a…

I think the truth is more complicated - here is another account that says the opposite (from a Cambodian): http://frontpagemag.com/2010/jlaksin/chomsky-and-the-khmer-r... The point is rather is not that he is pro ONE particular horrible regime. Rather that he is quick to support ANY (or most) regimes that are anti-american, regardless of what it's actually like - such as Mao's China (in the middle of madness of Cultu…

Sure, it's certainly more complicated.

Bear in mind, though, that "having made statements that, in some way, support X" and "being predominately in favor of X" are two radically different things, if you're trying to get at truth and not just score political points. I am not in favor of dictatorship just because I observe that Stalin correctly believed that 2+2=4. I have not seen anything that leads me to believe that Chomsky is wrong substantially more frequently, or in substantially worse ways, than others who pontificate on the global situation, so I try to challenge his arguments where I disagree with them and don't brush off the person - he is clearly an intelligent man.