Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy • Hacker News Board

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#61

Post by lukifer » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

fixxer wrote: post #14

OldSchool wrote: post #11

Chomsky is one of the greatest intellectuals of our time. The man has nothing to lose and nothing to gain by voicing his thoughts. Too bad he is getting up there in age but hopefully we will enjoy his presence for many more years.

Agreed. He is so very adept at reducing a complicated system into simple relationships of cause and effect. No government is to be trusted not to manipulate the population through fear. That should be taught in grade school.

"The burden of proof must always be on state power to justify itself."

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#62

Post by sinkasapa » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 9:47 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #42

zackmorris wrote: post #24

I've been a big fan of Noam Chomsky for years. I had to implement a recursive descent parser for a project recently and stumbled onto this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy He laid out the classes of formal grammars clear back in 1956. Every time you use a regular expression, compile code or run a script, you're applying concepts that he helped pioneer. I almost couldn't believe it. I have a new apprec…

Chomsky is a critical bridge between the ancient and modern, but credit for generative grammars belongs to Panini: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generative_grammar A good 2500 years prior. Chomsky was in the right place, at the right time, to carry that work forward into computer science. Not to detract, but the point is key: Sanskrt was formally specified 2500 years ago in a way that is recognizably a CFG.

Yes, and not mildly context sensitive.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#63

Post by alecco » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 9:49 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #59

speeder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from Brazil, he is not formally taught at schools, but I heard many geography and history teachers mention or cite him.

I started to read up on Chomsky a couple of times but didn't get far. The first time, I saw his opinions re USA's/NATO's intervention in ex-Yugoslavia. It just seemed like conspiracy theories, especially when I googled and found his apologetics for the Khmer Rouge (before they were found to be massmurding crazies). The second time, I got a link to a Chomsky interview. I got shocked -- Chomsky claimed that he didn't t…

You have information bias. US mainstream media reported widely on Chavez praising Chomsky and Chomsky condemning US foreign policy towards Venezuela. But years later, Chomsky denounced the arrest of journalists in Venezuela but this time it wasn't US MSM news worthy.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#64

Post by lukifer » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 9:55 PM UTC

vdaniuk wrote: post #55

WayneDB wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is a great intellectual, but he MAY also be acting as just another control mechanism, a gatekeeper: http://educate-yourself.org/cn/noamchomskygatekepper26sep05.... https://startpage.com/do/search?query=chomsky+gatekeeper Bio of the author of the first article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-abrahamson (Has the mention of this simple possibility offended you? If you think it's impossible, tell me why.)

I have no opinion on Chomsky as I am not really acquainted with his works. However, I was interested in him and trying to get some sort of minority opinion on Chomsky I decided to investigate your links. My conclusion is based on this great quote: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". I have seen zero citations, links or verifiable research on the pages, so for the time being I will use more conventiona…

I agree with the principle of "extraordinary proof", but in practice, what qualifies as extraordinary is highly subjective. To a Creationist, spontaneous generation of life is extraordinary. To a Truther, the buildings falling due to fire alone is extraordinary, etc.

I prefer the idea that an extraordinary amount of certainty requires extraordinary proof. Skepticism should be the default position.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#65

Post by sinkasapa » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 9:56 PM UTC

hox wrote: post #50

orbitingpluto wrote: post #16

Unsurprisingly, non-Americans take exception to American exceptionalism. America is literally pulling a, "We're better than you so we can violate any of your laws - including our own - and then murder, torture & kidnap. We are sovereign over the entire world." Few non-Americans think that's a swell idea, so it will only last as long as American power lasts. If you agree with Chomsky or not or if you think American po…

Do you honestly think other nations don't do the same? Treating the U.S. as an exceptional case in this regards is just ridiculous.

Nationalism is indeed horrible everywhere it is found. Patriotism should be treated just like racism wherever it is encountered. It is a mechanism for one group of people to dehumanize another or at least feel superior to another. But I think the most powerful nations are the most frightening.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#66

Post by lukifer » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 10:07 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #59

speeder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from Brazil, he is not formally taught at schools, but I heard many geography and history teachers mention or cite him.

I started to read up on Chomsky a couple of times but didn't get far. The first time, I saw his opinions re USA's/NATO's intervention in ex-Yugoslavia. It just seemed like conspiracy theories, especially when I googled and found his apologetics for the Khmer Rouge (before they were found to be massmurding crazies). The second time, I got a link to a Chomsky interview. I got shocked -- Chomsky claimed that he didn't t…

Chomsky has always been open about the fact that he believes the moral thing to do is criticize and scrutinize one's own nation and government first, because that is where you have the highest possibility of influence.

Despite being atheist/agnostic, he takes this principle straight from the Bible: "How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Matthew 7:4-5

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#67

Post by peterashford » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 10:10 PM UTC

hox wrote: post #50

orbitingpluto wrote: post #16

Unsurprisingly, non-Americans take exception to American exceptionalism. America is literally pulling a, "We're better than you so we can violate any of your laws - including our own - and then murder, torture & kidnap. We are sovereign over the entire world." Few non-Americans think that's a swell idea, so it will only last as long as American power lasts. If you agree with Chomsky or not or if you think American po…

Do you honestly think other nations don't do the same? Treating the U.S. as an exceptional case in this regards is just ridiculous.

Yeah, us New Zealanders have kidnapped lots of US citizens and handed them over for torture in opposition of own laws. We've established an overseas prison explicitly to hold people who would have rights if we imprisoned them locally.

But, you know, it's cool : all states do the same thing.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#68

Post by tome » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 10:12 PM UTC

orbitingpluto wrote: post #16

Unsurprisingly, non-Americans take exception to American exceptionalism. America is literally pulling a, "We're better than you so we can violate any of your laws - including our own - and then murder, torture & kidnap. We are sovereign over the entire world." Few non-Americans think that's a swell idea, so it will only last as long as American power lasts. If you agree with Chomsky or not or if you think American po…

Do you know what "American Exceptionalism" means? What do you think is wrong with that characterisation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#69

Post by kaonashi » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 10:14 PM UTC

brockers wrote: post #17

rdtsc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soup10 takes the anti Chomskian side and writes whiny comments full of ad-hominem attacks. He makes no attempt to consider Chomsky's side. But I still have hope and I am sure soup10 unlike Chomsky of course has a long list of documented bullet points that explain government's side.

I am a huge fan of Snowdens, of ending the Orwellian institutionalization of our democratic society, and even of Chomsky's statements in this instance but in Soup10's defence, Noam Chomsky IS an anti-American/anti-Government liberal socialist anarchist (in fact that is how he would describe HIMSELF) who uses linguistic gymnastics to de-construct cultural norms in a way the reflects his own ideology. As such he almost…

His 'worldview' is essentially 'the U.S. shouldn't interfere with the self-determination of other countries'. It's an uncontroversial position enshrined in international law. It only becomes problematic when you feel the need to defend U.S. actions that contradict what is essentially simple elementary morality.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#70

Post by jes » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 10:14 PM UTC

kaonashi wrote: post #38

jgalt212 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrespective of anything Chomsky says on the whole Snowden affair, Chomsky is bad American/borderline traitor. If there's an anti-American government position to take on an issue, he'll find it and take it.

Says the Ayn Rand disciple. Anti-government is great, unless it's anti-American government, then it's treason.

Objectivism is not anti-government, and indeed, sees government as necessary in order to protect the rights of individuals (all individuals) from those who would otherwise violate them.