Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy • Hacker News Board

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#51

Post by ak39 » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:37 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #46

ak39 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent! I always wanted to read a completely unbiased (and totally not cherry-picked and wasn't compiled by a fanatical detractor) resource on Chomsky's collected works. Clearly, this is it. Well, clearly you will also want to read the criticisms leveled against the hokey "logic" and arguments employed by Bogdanor himself. It is difficult to take Bogdanor seriously as a contribution to the body of knowledge on the…

This site is a collection of articles written by scores of writers of various political persuasions over decades. I would expect Chomsky supporters with an iota of critical thinking to be able to read them and see for themselves how reliable they are (and not just jump to wikipedia to check who assembled them).

Right. Since we are all in favour of being critical (which is all good), can we only look at some of the main points Bogdanor compiles against Chomsky which he parades them as hoaxes. This in order to see who the true hoaxer is (Chomsky or Bogdanor?):

http://bigwhiteogre.blogspot.com/2011/06/response-to-paul-bo...

Bogdanor is simply not convincing as a unbiased critique of Chomsky's works. It's tantamount to comparing apples with ... the ebola virus.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#52

Post by grandalf » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:38 PM UTC

jgalt212 wrote: post #31

pfraze wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dissent isn't treason, even if you do it a lot.

He dissents, per Chris Hitchens, even when such dissent is "stupid and ignorant." So if Chomsky is too smart to be "stupid and ignorant," he must do so out of his need to be a bad American. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_wor...

I think you might be trolling so I hesitate to make this comment, but Chomsky is anti-authoritarian in the same way as most US founders were. For some reason in the middle of his career, Hitchens took a very strong toward statism and the associated hypocrisy and authoritarianism.

That doesn't make Hitchens' intellect any less entertaining, but if you look closely at his worldview it's clear that he willfully indulged a big blind spot for the follies of state power and coercive force. Rand would surely agree with my assessment.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#53

Post by grandalf » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:41 PM UTC

northwest wrote: post #2

I think it's time somebody hand Chomsky a bigger mic.

That would be nice, but among those with the intellect to understand any kind of nuanced view, his opinions are well respected.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#54

Post by recusancy » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:42 PM UTC

WayneDB wrote: post #23

OldSchool wrote: post #11

Chomsky is one of the greatest intellectuals of our time. The man has nothing to lose and nothing to gain by voicing his thoughts. Too bad he is getting up there in age but hopefully we will enjoy his presence for many more years.

He is a great intellectual, but he MAY also be acting as just another control mechanism, a gatekeeper: http://educate-yourself.org/cn/noamchomskygatekepper26sep05.... https://startpage.com/do/search?query=chomsky+gatekeeper Bio of the author of the first article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-abrahamson (Has the mention of this simple possibility offended you? If you think it's impossible, tell me why.)

Oh good. Trutherism and NWO conspiracies.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#55

Post by vdaniuk » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:44 PM UTC

WayneDB wrote: post #23

OldSchool wrote: post #11

Chomsky is one of the greatest intellectuals of our time. The man has nothing to lose and nothing to gain by voicing his thoughts. Too bad he is getting up there in age but hopefully we will enjoy his presence for many more years.

He is a great intellectual, but he MAY also be acting as just another control mechanism, a gatekeeper: http://educate-yourself.org/cn/noamchomskygatekepper26sep05.... https://startpage.com/do/search?query=chomsky+gatekeeper Bio of the author of the first article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-abrahamson (Has the mention of this simple possibility offended you? If you think it's impossible, tell me why.)

I have no opinion on Chomsky as I am not really acquainted with his works. However, I was interested in him and trying to get some sort of minority opinion on Chomsky I decided to investigate your links. My conclusion is based on this great quote: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". I have seen zero citations, links or verifiable research on the pages, so for the time being I will use more conventional facts about Chomsky.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#56

Post by grandalf » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:51 PM UTC

soup10 wrote: post #4

Chomsky takes the anti-American, or anti-government side of any and all debates and writes whiny essays full of sarcastic jabs that preach to a choir of the faithful. He makes no attempt to consider the side of government(or whoever he as casting as the villain at the moment of his self righteous spiel). It's as much of a tragedy to take him seriously as it is to take radical right think tank garbage seriously.

The "side" of the government? In my opinion that statement reveals a flaw in your reasoning.

The government does not have a "side". It is intended to represent the people. It only needs a side if it must actively support its own preservation.

Consider all the stuff recently revealed by Wikileaks about Iraq and Afghanistan, and also consider the stuff released by Snowden ... None of it had to be kept secret to preserve the government as a whole, the state itself was not threatened in the least bit. All that was threatened were specific (narrow) programs which happen to be things that most Americans would be appalled by if they were known about.

So clearly the "side" these entities of government are on is the "side" of keeping their own actions secret so that the public won't oppose them and shut them down.

That is extremely anti-democratic. Sure we can all empathize with an NSA official who might face prison time if those responsible for the program are brought to justice, but I don't think that kind of empathy ought to prevent us from seeing the programs for what they are.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#57

Post by northwest » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:54 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #47

cconroy wrote: post #18

(This has nothing to do with Snowden but Chomsky's main point.) One thing I found troubling about all this is you can't expect the victims in other countries to decouple the intentions of the American gov't from American citizens. Except (even more troubling) is that citizens seem to support drone warfare ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/10/m... ).

Frankly, excepting a few circles (like, Hackers) most US citizens I've met support US government positions, even the most stupid ones, maybe out of ignorance... But they do. I remember even once, I was eating in a restaurant in front of my home (literally, it was across the street), and 3 US citizens were talking in english in a nearby table... Their conversation was one of the most horrible things I heard in a while…

> I never understood properly, how the hell a population can believe such bullshit.

Brainwashing by controlling the media & lack of education, I'd say.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#58

Post by junto » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 8:59 PM UTC

pfraze wrote: post #25

jgalt212 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrespective of anything Chomsky says on the whole Snowden affair, Chomsky is bad American/borderline traitor. If there's an anti-American government position to take on an issue, he'll find it and take it.

Dissent isn't treason, even if you do it a lot.

Yet

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#59

Post by berntb » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 9:20 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #45

galois17 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chomsky is one of the greatest intellectuals of our time" This is undoubtedly true. He is one of the most cited authors of all time. It is unfortunate that the american media does not give him the attention he deserves. In fact, in Europe Noam Chomsky and his opinions are very highly regarded and his writings are taught in schools. I am Greek (living in the U.S for the last 5 years) and I was first introduced to Noa…

I am from Brazil, he is not formally taught at schools, but I heard many geography and history teachers mention or cite him.

I started to read up on Chomsky a couple of times but didn't get far.

The first time, I saw his opinions re USA's/NATO's intervention in ex-Yugoslavia. It just seemed like conspiracy theories, especially when I googled and found his apologetics for the Khmer Rouge (before they were found to be massmurding crazies).

The second time, I got a link to a Chomsky interview. I got shocked -- Chomsky claimed that he didn't talk about the Sudan atrocities, because he couldn't influence much. WTF?! If the most famous academic US-critic, beloved by dictators, publicly condemned the Darfur handling etc by Sudan's government as 1000 times worse than what he complained about Israel, it would have an effect...

I wrote Chomsky off as another effect of the US right/left being equally crazy. Here in Europe we mostly get the left crazies, so he is big. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe. It seems to me Chomsky argues by (correctly) noting that governments lie a lot -- then he comes with really weird explanations to what really happens.

Re: Chomsky praises Snowden and condemns US hypocrisy

#60

Post by lukifer » Sun, Jul 28, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

orbitingpluto wrote: post #16

Unsurprisingly, non-Americans take exception to American exceptionalism. America is literally pulling a, "We're better than you so we can violate any of your laws - including our own - and then murder, torture & kidnap. We are sovereign over the entire world." Few non-Americans think that's a swell idea, so it will only last as long as American power lasts. If you agree with Chomsky or not or if you think American po…

American Exceptionalism is the worst kind of circular logic. "We're special because we're a nation built on values and laws. That means only we are allowed to violate those values and laws, because we're special. You're welcome."