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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#81

Post by sz4kerto »

dotmanish wrote: post #67
smtddr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

No, it's rather " If you don't like it, fork it. "

That's a very hypocritical approach I believe. A few years' ago our ex-prime minister said that if you don't like what's going on in the country, you're free to leave. It doesn't work like that.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#82

Post by valleyer »

vacri wrote: post #51
nl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. Perhaps you have never worked in a good office, on a good team where people respect each other. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. Why? It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be…

It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be achieved more politely. It saves time when you don't have to carefully structure each criticism in a compliment sandwich and so forth. It's understood in this environment that that's how the story goes - the excerpts people see of 'linus being rude again' are tut-tutted by a bunch of people who've never read a single other message o…

It’s not as black and white as you make it out to be. On one end of the spectrum, we have the inane “compliment sandwich”. On the other, we have Linus saying “your code is shit”. In the middle, we have professional yet effective criticism. Something like, “Sorry, we’re not going to take this code — it’s too half-baked and exposes some serious security vulnerabilities.”

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#84

Post by Dylan16807 »

ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

He's sarcastically showing the negative consequences of attempting to enforce professionalism. This is very different from a strawman. His argument is not 'you want bad thing B'. His argument is 'your desire for A causes bad thing B'.

The only thing worse than someone using a fallacy is someone calling out a fallacy that isn't there.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#85

Post by officemonkey »

Linus gets to do what he wants to do because he was extraordinarily successful in his field from a very young age. In other words, he's spoiled.

If he had to "work for a living," ie: work in a job he needed, rather than a job he wanted, he would likely have had a job which enforced behavioral norms. He probably wouldn't have been as happy, but he likely would more polite.

One of the things schools do is to socialize us to maintain civility. This only works for some people. It's clear to me that Linus is rather incapable of realizing he's being a douche, and even if he does realize it, he's not interested in changing for other people. And since it's Linus' sandbox, you either deal with it or go home.

However, the main point of his argument is valid. People are different and we should align ourselves with people that support our preferred way of working. If you can't work with Linus directly because he's a douche, then you better find an insulating support structure, or find another project.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#86

Post by jonahx »

ricw wrote: post #64
nl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. Perhaps you have never worked in a good office, on a good team where people respect each other. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. Why? It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be…

Yes it can. Direct criticism leads to more honesty, leads to a more productive work environment. Just grow some balls and learn to deal with direct criticism..

this is a false dichotomy. the choice is not between "be polite and evasive" and "be honest and abusive". it's easy to be direct and honest without being abusive. see my example in another reply:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6051057

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#87

Post by [deleted] »

fosap wrote: post #63
smtddr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

And that is the concept of the "benevolent dictator". If he is a dick, incompetent or does technical stuff you don't like, fork. IMO the best way to run FOSS project, but of course there are others.

[deleted]

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#88

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

People seem to be mistaken about why most teams accept certain standards. It's not about artificial politeness, it's about trying to get the best out of the team.

Not shouting people down is good because it means that people who are more reserved but who have valuable things to add get their say.

Not calling people stupid is good because generally people working on a project such as this aren't stupid and you're missing a chance to find out what really went wrong (misunderstanding, miscommunication or whatever).

Even if what they have said IS stupid, not abusing people for mistakes is good because abuse is a sub-optimal way of teaching.

Yes modern organisations have taken much of this too far and ended up as insincere, inefficient behemoths, but some of the standards within the community seems to be throwing the baby out with the bath water and taking almost gleeful pride in doing so.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#89

Post by EnderMB »

stephenr wrote: post #22
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

> You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality.

I understand the whole "you've obviously never ..." thing that people do to state that their experiences are not representative, but it just sounds dickish in your post. I think it's pretty obvious that the person you are replying to has worked in an office, and has had a good dose of reality.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#90

Post by vacri »

lazyjones wrote: post #29
pasiaj wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? The whole point is that he is not suppressing the urges. When he feels frustrated, he might add a "fuck" or "shit" to convey that feeling. You, on the other hand, did not agree to something, felt mad or frustrated, and instead of conveying that frustration you snidely suggested that that he must be suppressing some "natural urges". Violent? Homosexual? From whose subconscious did those arise from? Not Linuses? (…

> The whole point is that he is not suppressing the urges. Freud would disagree and so do I. > you snidely suggested that that he must be suppressing some "natural urges" Same thing Linus did in the last paragraph. :-/ > your reply to be a perfect example of what Linus is trying to avoid ("fake politeness[...]" That makes no sense. I am just trying to analyze and understand his behavior. There's no emotion involved a…

Freud's own work is considered heavily out of date, even by Freudian psychologists. Appealing to his image doesn't really lend weight to your argument.
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