Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident • Hacker News Board

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#331

Post by baddox » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:37 PM UTC

ethomson wrote: post #307

baddox wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're proposing up here would mean banning bicycles on all but specially marked bicycle paths. Well, think about it this way. Why are pedestrians banned from walking on roads, even when there are no nearby sidewalks? The answer, I believe, is that it's extremely dangerous, both to the pedestrian and to automobile drivers, and that it would cause massive inefficiency in the flow of traffic. The reality is that…

Can you cite this? Because it's certainly legal for pedestrians to use the roads in my state, sidewalk or no. There's no massive inefficiency, the cars pass the pedestrians, the cyclists, the skateboarders and all the other road users, when safe to do so, just like the law says they should.

I think most non-freeway roads technically allow pedestrians (with local exceptions), but under strict rules that place them well outside the flow of traffic. I'm not aware of any areas where pedestrians can walk with the direction of traffic while occupying a lane.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#332

Post by alxndr » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

kps wrote: post #327

alxndr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... when a car hits pedestrian or bike, the car is always the "guilty" party.... Does the US have something like that to promote cautious driving habits? Quite the opposite, in fact. In NYC, drivers are seldom cited at all even when a cyclist or pedestrian has been killed. Here's the link I have on hand, but there are more http://www.streetsblog.org/2012/08/03/nypd-7371-pedestrians-...

> In NYC, drivers are seldom cited at all even when a cyclist or pedestrian has been killed. Your link does not say that drivers are ‘seldom cited’; it says that drivers are cited slightly over half the time. A priori, an even split in responsibility across all cases seems perfectly reasonable.

"The NYC group Right of Way says: 'After NYC cycling fatalities increased twofold in 1999, police rushed to cover their, er, reputation by claiming (without analysis or supporting data) that cyclists are to blame in 75% of cycling deaths. ... The truth is just the reverse, as listed in our report, The Only Good Cyclist (PDF).' According to Right of Way, over 90% of pedestrian deaths in NYC are the fault of drivers. And research from Toronto shows the same thing for car-bike crashes. Most at-fault motorists who kill cyclists and pedestrians get off the hook. A study by the Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition shows that three out of four at fault drivers were never even cited for hitting and killing pedestrians. 22% of fatal pedestrian crashes involved hit and run drivers, yet, none of the runaway motorists were found or charged. In New York, 70-92% of drivers were at-fault in killing pedestrians and cyclists, but 74% didn't even get a ticket. (RightOfWay.org, 1999) The story in Austin is similar."

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/almanac-safety.html

Some recent headlines about how NYPD handles car-and-bike collisions:

"Another Cyclist Killed at East Harlem Intersection, NYPD Again Blames Victim"

"Motorist Havoc: Two Dead, Five Hurt, Kids in Critical Condition, No Charges"

"Cleared in Traffic Court, Hit-and-Run Killer Still Employed at NYC DOT"

"Leroy Comrie Bill Would Force NYPD to Report to Council on Hit-and-Runs"

"Hynes: No Charges for Curb-Jumper Who Blew Red and Killed Pedestrian"

"NYPD: Pedestrian Killed Himself by Running Into Stopped Police Cruiser"

"Cyclist’s Brother Says NYPD Closed Investigation Into Unsolved Death"

"Immune From Prosecution, Curb-Jumping NYC Motorists Claim More Victims"

"Irvin Gitlitz, 83, Was First of Two Pedestrian Fatalities Wednesday" (which notes, "The truck involved in the crash that killed Irvin Gitlitz did not have required crossover mirrors. The driver was not summonsed," and for the second fatality, "No summonses were issued")

...and those headlines are just going back to April of this year. http://www.streetsblog.org/category/issues-campaigns/nypd-cr...

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#333

Post by aroch » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

curveship wrote: post #295

aroch wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, many bicyclists freely ignore traffic laws too. They don't properly stop at stop signs or intersections (on red or yellow) and they act like pedestrians when it suits them. >[Slam] their brakes without noticing my bike behind them You're a vehicle when you ride on the streets, it's your responsibility to maintain a safe distance from the person in front of you and to react to their brake lights. Th…

Car drivers routinely ignore certain rules too: speed limits, full stops at stop signs, etc. They do this because doing so is mostly safe. It's the same with bicyclists: the rules they ignore are mostly safe too. The confusion is that, because cars and bikes are different, the rules that are safe to bend are different in each case.

That's all well and good, but when was the last time you saw a cyclist getting pulled over for running a stop sign? Or speeding (Which they tend to do down the large hills we have, and then continue on to blast through intersections at 40+)? I can tell you the last time I saw a car getting pulled over, just a few hours ago. Just because you think it's 'safe' to bend the rules, doesn't make it safe or legal. It's highly hypocritical of cyclists to complain that there aren't enough legal safe guards for them when they ignore the already established ones that are designed to keep all vehicles on the road safe.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#334

Post by alxndr » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

Amadou wrote: post #290

alxndr wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prevailing notion that "roads are made for cars" is self-fulfilling, as people use it as justification for making roads further unsafe for bicycles (and other road users).

Seems like the other way around to me - if roads are made for bicycles then there is no reason to invest in infrastructure like dedicated bike-paths, bike-lanes or even wider shoulders.

Cute.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#335

Post by alxndr » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:45 PM UTC

mlbmlb wrote: post #305

alxndr wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The roads were built for cars. This is untrue. "The coming of the railways in the 1830s killed off the stage-coach trade; almost all rural roads reverted to low-level local use. Cyclists were the first group in a generation to use roads and were the first to push for high-quality sealed surfaces and were the first to lobby for national funding and leadership for roads. Without cyclists, motorists wouldn't have hit…

Because the majority of roads nowadays in use were built in 1830... /sarcasm Here, even 70 years ago, several roads were just a dusty path through fields and many of them didn't exist yet. When they were actually built as a road, it was done for cars, buses, trucks and it was done from steep consumption taxes on gas and later from country-wide toll imposed on cars. Of course, YMMV in your country. But I really think…

re: paying for building roads, http://www.frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/do-roads-pay-themsel...

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#336

Post by epochwolf » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:51 PM UTC

PetrolMan wrote: post #227

jberryman wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I can see both sides. This isn't a "on the one hand, on the other" issue. Even the most foolish and aggressive cyclist is almost never endangering the safety of drivers around him, even indirectly. Yet all it takes is a nudge, honk, door opening, unsignaled turn, etc. to kill a cyclist. Bicycle etiquette is for all practical purposes not a public safety issue, and IMHO responses of the "but bicyclists can be ru…

Bike lanes apparently don't help as much as you'd think. There is a psychological aspect to providing a bike lane that makes car drivers think that bikers are already protected by the lane, meaning, in the end, that they don't actually give bikers as much room. Edit: Bike lanes increase safety but I just added it to point out that it's a relatively complicated situation. I think lower speeds were the biggest factor t…

Bike lanes also don't help when bikers weave in and out of it.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#337

Post by Amadou » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:54 PM UTC

jlcx wrote: post #330

Amadou wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This privilege is represented by a motor vehicle operator's license, which may be revoked by the state for a variety of reasons. If that was a sound argument, then one could say that the right to own a firearm is really just a privilege because most states require a license to own a firearm which may be revoked by the state for a variety of reasons. Or similarly that the right to vote is just a privilege because yo…

I don't think it's accurate to say that most states require a license just to own a firearm. There are age, mental health, and criminal background restrictions, but that's not quite the same thing. Some states do have gun ownership licenses, but most only require licenses to carry a firearm, and in many of those states, that is technically only required for concealed carry.

Amend "most" with many. A quick scan of wikipedia suggests there are about 20 states that require a permit to purchase or registration of ownership. Federal law also restricts ownership by convicted felons in all 50 states which is essentially the same thing - regulation by any other name.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#338

Post by dllthomas » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 9:59 PM UTC

jchrisa wrote: post #323

dllthomas wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're in favor of lowering the speed limit to like 15 mph?

Yes: http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/

If that's the parent's position, then I'm not sure I agree but I can't fault them for inconsistency. In an environment where many cars are traveling faster, though, it is nonetheless irresponsible and dangerous to others to ride a bike recklessly (or otherwise be unpredictable near fast-moving traffic).

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#339

Post by alxndr » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 10:00 PM UTC

lttlrck wrote: post #291

alxndr wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...both car's passengers are surrounded by a metal cage that is trying to protect lives.

Stop being obtuse.

I wonder if someone could find stats on how many car-on-car collisions are caused by avoiding a bicycle, and compare that to how many car-on-bicycle collisions are caused by a swerving bicyclist (or any cause, really).

And then look at the resulting injuries.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#340

Post by alxndr » Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 10:03 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #338

jchrisa wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes: http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/

If that's the parent's position, then I'm not sure I agree but I can't fault them for inconsistency. In an environment where many cars are traveling faster, though, it is nonetheless irresponsible and dangerous to others to ride a bike recklessly (or otherwise be unpredictable near fast-moving traffic).

I will agree that a relatively slow-moving bicycle on a road with fast-moving cars is indeed a dangerous situation for everyone. And I would agree that having similar speed vehicles together seems safer.

However, in places with vehicles going differing speeds, I would put the onus of safety on the faster vehicles.