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Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

guardian.co.uk

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Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#71

Post by tptacek »

geon wrote: post #70
tptacek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Many of them were in fact armed combatants. A significant problem in securing the release of GTMO detainees is that they were handled so clumsily that it was difficult to sort out which detainees were victims of circumstance and which were violent. Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces. 2. By "allied" he meant "NATO". There are plenty of "black" peo…

> Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces. So kidnapping people and torturing them makes you enemies? Who would have thought...

This glib sentiment ignores the reality that there are in fact thousands of armed militants in Afghanistan who will happily kill tens of innocent Afghanis on spec just for the prospect of killing a single NATO soldier, and that the vast majority of those militants have not been captured.

One needn't support GTMO, or even tolerate it, to acknowledge the fact that our adversaries in this conflict are both real and despicable.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#72

Post by charlieflowers »

Surely everyone watching this had their bullshit detectors go off???

Regardless of how you feel about Guantanamo Bay, there is clearly some acting -- some "dramatic exaggeration" -- going on in this video.

Bey volunteered to undergo the procedure. So he knew they would stop at any point if he asked them to. There was no need, therefore, for all the screaming of "no" and "please don't."

For Bey, this procedure was akin to you or I needing a painful procedure performed at the doctor's office. You might hate it, you might cry out in pain, but you don't react with the distress of knowing that you're being forced against your will.

If someone wants to make a video for the purpose of exposing me to some truth I'm unaware of, great. But don't go enhancing it with your own bullshit. There's already enough propaganda and bullshit for me to discern my way through to start with.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#73

Post by gee_totes »

bbwharris wrote: post #66
StavrosK wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else would you do with them, other than set them free? "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill me". Are you serious?

And then he does, and the media makes a big deal out of it and people cry out "never again", "how did we not see this coming?", "whos accountable?". Setting them free and closing the illegal prison is the right thing to do. If I was calling the shots I would close it and release them. BUT: I just see why they haven't done it yet. It's a quagmire, with extreme consequences. Sure, let a prison full of "suspected terror…

I don't think anything will go wrong if we let them go.

Everyone knows that they will be monitored up the wazoo by the NSA. Any smart terrorist operative will not associate with the released prisoners. And the ones that do will provide a nice honeypot for the NSA.

The real quagmire will be when the NSA picks up intel about the released prisoners and fails to pass it along to any other intelligence agencies.

Then we'll be blinded by our own incompetence and go back to the media blame you mentioned in your comment.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#74

Post by Buzaga »

charlieflowers wrote: post #72

Surely everyone watching this had their bullshit detectors go off??? Regardless of how you feel about Guantanamo Bay, there is clearly some acting -- some "dramatic exaggeration" -- going on in this video. Bey volunteered to undergo the procedure. So he knew they would stop at any point if he asked them to. There was no need, therefore, for all the screaming of "no" and "please don't." For Bey, this procedure was aki…

please make an AMA mr fountain of the truth, I'd like to know more.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#75

Post by Buzaga »

charlieflowers wrote: post #72

Surely everyone watching this had their bullshit detectors go off??? Regardless of how you feel about Guantanamo Bay, there is clearly some acting -- some "dramatic exaggeration" -- going on in this video. Bey volunteered to undergo the procedure. So he knew they would stop at any point if he asked them to. There was no need, therefore, for all the screaming of "no" and "please don't." For Bey, this procedure was aki…

that's a very normal reaction, lookup any 'funny' video of people not being able to hold the pain of getting tattooed... they wanted it done, they paid, they try to sustain what they're going through since they accepted it in the first place(which is not the case of your criminal country abductees) and then it explodes in a violent reaction when they figure out "I really can't take it", go, look it up.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#76

Post by DanBC »

jabbernotty wrote: post #33
speeder wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thou…

There were 3000 casualties.

People didn't know that until some time after.

There were 40,000 people in the buildings when the planes crashed.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#77

Post by DanBC »

thufry wrote: post #28
madaxe wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the UK they wouldn't, no. Only in your barbarous country do such things (legally) happen in prisons. We recently had a debate over Ian Brady staying in a mental prison vs. prison prison, as under psychiatric care they can force feed you, but not in prison.

So they would let you die? I'm not sure that's clearly more humane.

People have the right to refuse medical treatment if they have capacity to make that decision.

There is a range of choices - people die much sooner than they need to because they refuse blood, or people die a little quicker than they need to because they refuse painful cancer treatment.

When someone refuses to eat they'll eventually need the medical treatment - force feeding - to keep them alive. Some of those people have capacity to make that decision. Others (people with anorexia) don't.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#78

Post by madaxe »

tptacek wrote: post #61
madaxe wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. 1) Many (most) weren't "caught" doing anything, other than going about their business. The majority were kidnapped from airports. 2) "Allied forces"? We white. Them black. Therefore them bad. Try to see the world from a perspective other than your own. 3) "War zone" - no it wasn't. It became a warzone after most of those in Gitmo were disappeared. That's like saying that what happened to jewish people befo…

1. Many of them were in fact armed combatants. A significant problem in securing the release of GTMO detainees is that they were handled so clumsily that it was difficult to sort out which detainees were victims of circumstance and which were violent. Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces. 2. By "allied" he meant "NATO". There are plenty of "black" peo…

1. Some, not many. The majority are noise. There is signal there, in terms of what The US are looking for most likely, but who knows in the abscence of any trial. Innocent until proven guilty. They weren't arrested. They weren't taken as POWs. Just abducted. Sorry, rendered.

2. I meant black and white from the polar point of view. Germany and Italy were allies.

3. Yup, but plenty of these guys ain't from the 'stans, and Afghanistan was self contained. The history of conflict in Afghanistan is long and bloody, and rarely bought about by Afghanis - usually empires looking for resources and an enviable bit of geography.

4. No, but it talks about the lawful taking and holding of POWs, which, operating outside of such, makes Guantanamo a criminal enterprise in international law, and it's actions therefore being nothing more than kidnapping.

QED.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#79

Post by madaxe »

tptacek wrote: post #71
geon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces. So kidnapping people and torturing them makes you enemies? Who would have thought...

This glib sentiment ignores the reality that there are in fact thousands of armed militants in Afghanistan who will happily kill tens of innocent Afghanis on spec just for the prospect of killing a single NATO soldier, and that the vast majority of those militants have not been captured. One needn't support GTMO, or even tolerate it, to acknowledge the fact that our adversaries in this conflict are both real and desp…

They're not despicable. Just piteous, and angry, and at the guys who really screwed shit up for them - that's the US right now - used to be the USSR. The militants were borne out of these historic conflicts, and were largely armed by such. They will not go away through force. They cannot. It is ridiculous to think that one can resolve something through yet more of the very thing which instigated it. They can and will go away if their root cause, Imperialism, is no longer an issue. Currently, they seek to do this by force, and they're winning; the US I see today compared to that I knew and loved and lived in some 15 years ago bears precious little semblance. This could be resolved diplomatically, but only through tripartite talks between the Afghani government, the Taliban and the US.

Can a man who's warm understand one who's freezing?

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#80

Post by tptacek »

madaxe wrote: post #78
tptacek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Many of them were in fact armed combatants. A significant problem in securing the release of GTMO detainees is that they were handled so clumsily that it was difficult to sort out which detainees were victims of circumstance and which were violent. Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces. 2. By "allied" he meant "NATO". There are plenty of "black" peo…

1. Some, not many. The majority are noise. There is signal there, in terms of what The US are looking for most likely, but who knows in the abscence of any trial. Innocent until proven guilty. They weren't arrested. They weren't taken as POWs. Just abducted. Sorry, rendered. 2. I meant black and white from the polar point of view. Germany and Italy were allies. 3. Yup, but plenty of these guys ain't from the 'stans,…

Since we've apparently reached "QED", there's little point in continuing the discussion.
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