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Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

guardian.co.uk

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Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#61

Post by tptacek »

madaxe wrote: post #51
rayiner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

Oh please. 1) Many (most) weren't "caught" doing anything, other than going about their business. The majority were kidnapped from airports. 2) "Allied forces"? We white. Them black. Therefore them bad. Try to see the world from a perspective other than your own. 3) "War zone" - no it wasn't. It became a warzone after most of those in Gitmo were disappeared. That's like saying that what happened to jewish people befo…

1. Many of them were in fact armed combatants. A significant problem in securing the release of GTMO detainees is that they were handled so clumsily that it was difficult to sort out which detainees were victims of circumstance and which were violent. Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces.

2. By "allied" he meant "NATO". There are plenty of "black" people in NATO.

3. Afghanistan was in fact a war zone long before 2001. At its most orderly, under the brutal control of the Taliban, it was a loosely organized state embroiled in a civil war destined to produce a breakaway non-Pashto state. Also: the word "disappeared" means something specific, and you dilute that meaning by using it here. The "disappeared" of Central and South America are so named because they're never heard from again; they're often murdered by death squads.

4. Nothing in the Geneva Conventions speaks to the definition of "kidnapping".

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#62

Post by doktrin »

speeder wrote: post #24
DanBC wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking innocent taxi drivers, subjecting them to the "gift of democracy" that is extraordinary rendition and torture while being detained without trial or charge is already an effective recruiting tool for terrorists. Allowing the detainees to kill themselves turns them into martyrs, and becomes even more effective at turning people to violence. Don't forget that this behaviour just shifts the curve of moderateness t…

US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thou…

> US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil

This strikes me as intellectual arrogance. How do you know what "US people" do or do not realize?

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#63

Post by speeder »

doktrin wrote: post #60
speeder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most brazillians did not celebrated 9/11, obviously. Most did not care. Several of those who did, were shocked, and sad, specially those that had relatives there. But several were VERY HAPPY, usually those that got screwed during the cold war. My point is: people forget, that when you make yourself a hated enemy, people WILL hate you, in irrational ways, it is easy to create terrorist and a vicious cycle of violence.…

> People are NOT psychopaths, they are normal people, hurt by US government so deeply, that any chance they have to see it hurting back will make them happy, even if it means the deaths of thousands of innocents. > I am very sure that if you leave a US citizen (any citizen, the most adorable citizen even) near one of the territories were PCC is popular (PCC is a huge organized crime thing here, created during the col…

Remorse do not apply when there is deep hate involved.

People are unfortunately capable of great evil, and feeling good about it, when they think they are on the right side.

People can do evil things, and think they are doing good, it is obvious they won't feel remorse, you cannot feel remorse for something that makes you feel like a hero of sorts.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#64

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #59
tptacek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither characterization is true. GTMO detainees weren't kidnapped, but there's little evidence to suggest that most of them were actual combatants. It upsets me a little to see discussions about things like GTMO distracting themselves from the core issue. The problem isn't detention at GTMO, or drone strikes, or the citizenship status of targets. To engage yourself fully with any of those problems is to nibble aroun…

To be fair, the AUMF was not a declaration of war against an ideology. It was a declaration of war against whichever specific non-state military groups planned and committed the September 11 attacks and anyone who harbored them. From the AUMF: "(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized,…

"Those nations, organizations, or persons [...] planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks [...] or harbored such organizations or persons" describes an ideology.

The problematic word is "organizations". The most important lesson we should learn from the 2000s is "never allow the word 'organizations' (or any of its synonyms) to appear in an AUMF again". You can invade a nation, you can kill a person, but there's simply no clear definition of what it means to eradicate an organization.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#65

Post by tptacek »

flexie wrote: post #48
rayiner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

Maybe they were caught on the battlefield, maybe they weren't. These prisoners were tortured and deprived of habeas corpus. Without a fair trial it's fair to question anything regarding their detention. Seeing it as kidnapping seems quite reasonable.

Enemy combatants do not have habeas corpus rights and never have. When Allied forces captured German soldiers in World War II, they were not required to present them to a judge and those soldiers weren't sentenced; they were held until the conflict ended. If Allied forces accidentally rounded up German civilians in the process, those civilians could also expect indefinite detention.

In a world historical sense, such treatment is a mercy; in total war, the only alternative, of course, is to kill the detainees.

GTMO represents a great moral failing of the United States, but let's also not forget that the USG is the lesser of two culpable parties; the greater responsibility lies with an irregular army that deliberately exploits its civilian host population to conceal itself, relying on the fact that retaliation will inevitably harm more innocents than fighters. The Taliban isn't the Viet Cong. The cause of the Taliban and "Al Qaeda" (whatever that means) is a lost one, fueled entirely by an obscene willingness to see thousands of innocent people murdered solely prolong the inevitable.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#66

Post by bbwharris »

StavrosK wrote: post #14
bbwharris wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree it is a disgrace, what do you plan to do with the detainees? If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that's the real problem. I'm not defending it, I think it should be closed too. These humans have been subjected to complete hell.

What else would you do with them, other than set them free? "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill me". Are you serious?

And then he does, and the media makes a big deal out of it and people cry out "never again", "how did we not see this coming?", "whos accountable?".

Setting them free and closing the illegal prison is the right thing to do. If I was calling the shots I would close it and release them.

BUT:

I just see why they haven't done it yet. It's a quagmire, with extreme consequences. Sure, let a prison full of "suspected terrorists" out into the world, what could go wrong?

How nice would it be to live in a world where we all trust each other and enjoy peace and harmony?

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#67

Post by bbwharris »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #18
bbwharris wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree it is a disgrace, what do you plan to do with the detainees? If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that's the real problem. I'm not defending it, I think it should be closed too. These humans have been subjected to complete hell.

If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that's the real problem. You speak as if the rest of the world isn't noticing wtf is happening there, including the families of the detainees. As if these people being kept there wouldn't motivate a lot more people to become terrorists, than freeing them would. This isn't even burning the village to save the village. This is nuking a whole…

That's an illuminating point. Indeed, a form of martyrdom is at work one way or another.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#68

Post by speeder »

pathy wrote: post #41
speeder wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thou…

Why on earth would anyone cheer for 3000+ people dying? Insanity. I say that those you cheered during 9/11 has been force fed anti-US propaganda. Holy shit, what an disgusting attitude. I may not like some US politics but cheering for 9/11... That is insane. I would love to see sources on Brazilians celebrating 9/11.

When your best friend, or you father, or your grandma got "disappeared" by the CIA or a CIA-backed institution, is it propaganda?

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#69

Post by FireBeyond »

tptacek wrote: post #61
madaxe wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. 1) Many (most) weren't "caught" doing anything, other than going about their business. The majority were kidnapped from airports. 2) "Allied forces"? We white. Them black. Therefore them bad. Try to see the world from a perspective other than your own. 3) "War zone" - no it wasn't. It became a warzone after most of those in Gitmo were disappeared. That's like saying that what happened to jewish people befo…

1. Many of them were in fact armed combatants. A significant problem in securing the release of GTMO detainees is that they were handled so clumsily that it was difficult to sort out which detainees were victims of circumstance and which were violent. Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces. 2. By "allied" he meant "NATO". There are plenty of "black" peo…

"Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces."

I think few things would want to make me take up arms more against an invader than the false imprisonment of myself or my family at GTMO for said act.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#70

Post by geon »

tptacek wrote: post #61
madaxe wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. 1) Many (most) weren't "caught" doing anything, other than going about their business. The majority were kidnapped from airports. 2) "Allied forces"? We white. Them black. Therefore them bad. Try to see the world from a perspective other than your own. 3) "War zone" - no it wasn't. It became a warzone after most of those in Gitmo were disappeared. That's like saying that what happened to jewish people befo…

1. Many of them were in fact armed combatants. A significant problem in securing the release of GTMO detainees is that they were handled so clumsily that it was difficult to sort out which detainees were victims of circumstance and which were violent. Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces. 2. By "allied" he meant "NATO". There are plenty of "black" peo…

> Several people released from GTMO have later been killed or captured in armed conflict with NATO forces.

So kidnapping people and torturing them makes you enemies? Who would have thought...

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