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Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

guardian.co.uk

41–50 of 95 posts

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#41
post #24
post #20

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Taking innocent taxi drivers, subjecting them to the "gift of democracy" that is extraordinary rendition and torture while being detained without trial or charge is already an effective recruiting tool for terrorists. Allowing the detainees to kill themselves turns them into martyrs, and becomes even more effective at turning people to violence. Don't forget that this behaviour just shifts the curve of moderateness t…

US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thou…

Why on earth would anyone cheer for 3000+ people dying? Insanity. I say that those you cheered during 9/11 has been force fed anti-US propaganda.

Holy shit, what an disgusting attitude. I may not like some US politics but cheering for 9/11... That is insane. I would love to see sources on Brazilians celebrating 9/11.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#43
post #38
post #28

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So they would let you die? I'm not sure that's clearly more humane.

Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims."

And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently there. Our policies are strongly anti-suicide across the board. See: http://wagingnonviolence.org/feature/guantanamo-is-not-an-an....

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#44
post #35
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thou…

I think you may be conflating your own sadism with something normative and just. Despite your assertions elsewhere that the whole world is just waiting for an opportunity to turn the United States into a graveyard, most people around the world do not not, in fact, hate the United States so vehemently that 9/11 made them cheer. Most people around the world reacted the way human beings with empathy do, with horror and…

Most brazillians did not celebrated 9/11, obviously. Most did not care.

Several of those who did, were shocked, and sad, specially those that had relatives there.

But several were VERY HAPPY, usually those that got screwed during the cold war.

My point is: people forget, that when you make yourself a hated enemy, people WILL hate you, in irrational ways, it is easy to create terrorist and a vicious cycle of violence.

Brazil up to WWII liked the US, bought craploads of US stuff, and even joined WWII for the US side despite the president being fascist and having connections to the Italian fascists (of course, the fact US offered a steel mill in bribe when Brazil had none, was a huge factor).

During cold war, US backed the military coup here, and quickly things turned into "we vs them", we had during the cold war a US embassador kidnapped, citibank branches bombed or torched, english speaking soldiers killed (the most famous was two UK navy sailors that were here on vacation) and so on.

What make you think, that after you make people believe you are their enemy, that you are at war with them, they will stop believing that after situation change?

There are lots of people here that has a grudge not only with US, but with all of its citizens as well, injust as that might be, the destruction of the World Trade Center, a economic symbol of the US, and the attack on Pentagon, is something that several people around the world cheered (obviously more on middle east, where people threw wild parties in the street and shot upwards) because those people viewed it as the invincible bully being hurt for the first time, people saw it, horrible as the actual event was in numbers of civilians killed, as a successful war attack, revenge, justice, david hurting goliath, etc...

People are NOT psychopaths, they are normal people, hurt by US government so deeply, that any chance they have to see it hurting back will make them happy, even if it means the deaths of thousands of innocents.

This is what fuel wars...

United States huge military is a deterrent for countries attacking it, but don't mistake that peace for the world agreeing with the US, I am very sure few countries would side with the US in a hypotetical world war with a level amount of military (ie: not US having alone half of the world military power, as current it is).

I am very sure that if you leave a US citizen (any citizen, the most adorable citizen even) near one of the territories were PCC is popular (PCC is a huge organized crime thing here, created during the cold war with purpose of fighting US-backed government), people (normal people, civilians, not members of PCC) will be happy to do things to that citizen that is best not describe here...

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#45
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thou…

There were 3000 casualties.

My bad

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#46
post #43
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

> but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone.

Wow, that is incredibly misinformed. And even if it were true (it is not), it does not justify torture. Torture is always despicable, and there's a permanent moral stain on the nation that perpetrates torture, no matter who is being tortured. There is no excuse. No excuse.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#47
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's horrifying. Might as well force-feed them pork. And the US knows that this is illegal, too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/05/forcefee...

No, they force-fed them at night, which is when they could eat. It's still fucked up, but at least it's not a sin.

If true, then you have a valid point. What a sorry state the US is in that nuances like this are considered.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#48
post #43
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

Maybe they were caught on the battlefield, maybe they weren't.

These prisoners were tortured and deprived of habeas corpus. Without a fair trial it's fair to question anything regarding their detention. Seeing it as kidnapping seems quite reasonable.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#49
post #48
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

Maybe they were caught on the battlefield, maybe they weren't. These prisoners were tortured and deprived of habeas corpus. Without a fair trial it's fair to question anything regarding their detention. Seeing it as kidnapping seems quite reasonable.

That's fallacious reasoning. Just because they were treated wrongly in one way does not mean it becomes correct to mischaracterize "anything regarding their detention."

And Guantanamo prisoners are getting habeas petitions heard: http://ccrjustice.org/GTMOscorecard. It's not happening fast enough, and partly for logistical reasons (no U.S. state wants to host trials for them and foreign countries don't want them back), but it is happening.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#50
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

> but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. Wow, that is incredibly misinformed. And even if it were true (it is not), it does not justify torture. Torture is always despicable, and there's a permanent moral stain on the nation that perpetrates torture, no matter who is being tortured. There is no excuse. No excuse.

Torture is despicable, but there is an ongoing debate about whether anything going on at Guantanamo (as opposed to Abu Ghraib) is actually torture under the international definitions. It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be.
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