Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs • Hacker News Board

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#61

Post by walshemj » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #49

agilebyte wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from another country that has mandatory ID cards it does not seem odd to me. How do you confirm someone's identity otherwise? Maybe you are thinking that criminals can always have fake IDs so having an ID is pointless?

The idea that you could be required to identify yourself is probably what seems strange to them. In (at least) several US states the police can require you to identify yourself, but telling them your name is all that is required. Americans have an aversion to "papers please", because for decades that is one of the things that we felt distinguished ourselves from certain other countries.

Quite that is why the UK drooped ID cards after WW2 rather surprised that other countries which had much more bad experience with "papers please" in WW2 did not do the same.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#62

Post by sentenza » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 9:37 PM UTC

louthy wrote: post #53

sentenza wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation…

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.…

You bring up an interesting point. I very often read that the UK joined for the single market but then afterwards the EU started taking away national sovereignty.

I don't quite understand how this view of things is possible.

From the very start, when the Coal and Steel Community was created in 1952, loss of national sovereignty was, to a certain degree, built into the system. The primary goal of European cooperation was to take away the ability of European nations to go to war with one another. Also remember the "de fact solidarity" that Robert Schuman spoke of in his famous declaration in 1950: With all the horrors of WW2 fresh in mind, nobody could expect the people of Europe to show solidarity for another, so the framework of Europe must be set up to generate a "de facto solidarity". The whole system should be set up in such a way that the people of Europe cannot _not_ show solidarity.

We learned this in school and it seems to be generally accepted by the general populace, at least in the "old" continental Western Europe. If you ask older Germans or French about European integration, they will talk about avoiding war, not about the single market.

The only possible explanation I can come up with for the sentiment that the EU was "all about the single market" is that UK voters were horribly misled by their press and politicians at the time of EU accession. Is this plausible?

On a side note: I admit that what I wrote about hating Europe was harsh, but we (i.e., me and many others I've spoken to) do feel genuinely betrayed.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#63

Post by UVB-76 » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

kamjam wrote: post #31

blumentopf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data ret…

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

I know it's not strictly related to the matter at hand, but the notion of the EU churning out absurd and illogical directives is largely a construct of the tabloid press.

As someone who has had exposure to certain parts of EU human rights law, the coverage of the relevant issues in the British press is disgraceful. Unfortunately, respecting people's human rights is often difficult and costly, thus an easy target for sensationalist headlines.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#64

Post by lispm » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 9:49 PM UTC

louthy wrote: post #53

sentenza wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation…

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.…

Here in Germany we signed up exactly for that. A Europe with peace and democracy, without borders, countries with political integration, large enough to be heard outside of Europe, ...

The 'common market' was a tool to achieve that. We were also certain that France (and some other countries) also wanted that. Something which was/is very important for us.

Not sure what Britain was and is thinking... but if Britain says they did not know about these goals, then something else went wrong. But that sounds more like internal problems in Britain and has very little to do with the EU or Europe.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#65

Post by varjag » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 9:54 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #30

oceanstone wrote: post #8

Assuming this level of unconstitutional surveillance continues, what can we do? Here are some of my ideas: Send encrypted emails, to communicate long distances. Use the internet way less. Use cell phones only to arrange real life meetups. Hang out & talk to people in real life. Never have a meaningful discussion "over the air".

This actually made me think about what kinds of analog communication equipment could we use and encrypt transmissions with? I know Motorola makes some two way radios that have encryption, just not sure how good it is. It would be interesting if people started to revert back to less and less digital communication and went back to doing what you're talking about. It's almost like another counter revolution taking shape…

A scrambler can be used in audio band, although I'm not sure how well it will mate with a GSM codec. Still it's an inferior solution to purely digital P2P VoIP systems (like e.g. Skype before the supernodes).

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#66

Post by rustynails » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 9:55 PM UTC

My son just asked why the English are so bad "spying on Europeans". I reassured him by saying that most western governments are almost cetainly corrupt (inc dear old Australia). And he who controls the databases controls the politicians, police, lawyers, judges ... You get the idea. And even better, just because you've got nothing to hide, it's easy for these databases to be changed by someone in the know. These systems are extremely dangerous, and should not be underestimated.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#67

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 10:00 PM UTC

Historiopode wrote: post #46

nekojima wrote: post #39

"The Lives of Others" (Das Leben der Anderen) is an excellent German film that dramatically shows the intrusiveness of the Stasi (secret police) into daily life in the former East Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others In the film you can see some of the techniques used by Wolfgang Schmidt and his colleagues.

Ironically enough, the lead actor (Ulrich Mühe[1]) had really been under Stasi surveillance; a surveillance to which his then wife allegedly collaborated. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_M%C3%BChe

> Mühe's response when asked how he prepared for his role in Das Leben der Anderen was, "I remembered."

...Wow. I find it hard to even fathom that.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#68

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 10:05 PM UTC

Pinckney wrote: post #10

ferdo wrote: post #4

Not surprising. DHS hired an old Stasi hand and an old KGB hand as advisors under Dubya: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Jan05/Whitney0121.htm

Bullshit. Even your own source acknowledges that they can't confirm these reports.

[deleted]

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#69

Post by vacri » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 10:05 PM UTC

Let's keep some perspective. The fear of the Stasi wasn't just 'are they tapping our phones?' If it was, they wouldn't have been so feared - just be careful on the phones. It was having a network of informants, such that you couldn't trust anyone, anywhere, that really caused the oppressive atmosphere. Americans are not living under the fear that if they mention something anti-government to a neighbour, they have a realistic chance of being carted off in the night.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#70

Post by drucken » Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 10:07 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #62

louthy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.…

You bring up an interesting point. I very often read that the UK joined for the single market but then afterwards the EU started taking away national sovereignty. I don't quite understand how this view of things is possible. From the very start, when the Coal and Steel Community was created in 1952, loss of national sovereignty was, to a certain degree, built into the system. The primary goal of European cooperation…

"The only possible explanation I can come up with for the sentiment that the EU was "all about the single market" is that UK voters were horribly misled by their press and politicians at the time of EU accession. Is this plausible?"

This is the correct interpretation, at least as far as public polls over EU prove time and again in the UK.

If you actually combine the different responses to EU surveys, almost everyone in the UK across all factions of life, even today, mostly have interest in remaining in the EU solely for the common market, if that.

It is probably not helped by the fact that the most respected or even revered UK political leaders of the last 50 years, i.e. Churchhill and Thatcher, were extremely lukewarm about the EU project.

The difference compared to political attitudes of the public on the continent is very stark indeed.

Note. As for the European Convention on Human Rights opt-out, that is mostly a UK Conservative government/conservative media issue that they want to force through and they have had very little actual broader public debate or support. Of course, that does not mean that it will not go through eventually regardless, especially when "terrorism" is used to justify just about anything these days...