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Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

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Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#31

Post by kamjam »

blumentopf wrote: post #25
feral wrote: post #20

The EU, which Germany is a major part of, passed the Data Retention Directive [0] in 2006. That directive required every state in the EU to pass laws that all their citizens telecommunications metadata would be stored for at least 6 months, and often more, up to 2 years. As I understand it, this means all 'metadata' is required to be stored, including the source and destination for every phonecall and text message, i…

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data ret…

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#32

Post by ajross »

lispm wrote: post #23

The US is in need for a full operating system upgrade. Like going from Mac OS 9 to OS X. Not a .1 upgrade. Obama delivered a Microsoft-style upgrade. You were promised 'hope' and 'change'. What you got is a worse version of Microsoft Windows with lots of spyware and a built-in 'security' system.

Right. Also a federal guarantee of accessible health coverage, the end to two wars (and the notable lack of any new ones), two supreme court justices with quite acceptable records on civil liberties, and currently a reasonable shot at bringing federal immigration law into line with the size of the actual immigrant workforce.

I wasn't able to fit all that into your OS metaphor, sorry.

Less rhetoric, more policy debate please.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#33

Post by kamjam »

oceanstone wrote: post #8

Assuming this level of unconstitutional surveillance continues, what can we do? Here are some of my ideas: Send encrypted emails, to communicate long distances. Use the internet way less. Use cell phones only to arrange real life meetups. Hang out & talk to people in real life. Never have a meaningful discussion "over the air".

How about sending all that meaningless bullsht emails with an additional notice, like we have for confidentially along the lines of, and then suing the US government if your stuff ever turns up (yes, I know, it's difficult).

This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s), are confidential, and may be privileged... If you are the NSA then please note I am a US citizen and under 4th Amendment rights you are not lawfully allowed to store records of this message

(I am not a US citizen, so fix as required)

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#35

Post by agilebyte »

walshemj wrote: post #17
hiddenfeatures wrote: post #6

In my experience over the last few weeks, younger Germans (my age, 30 years & younger) are blissfully ignorant ("I don't have anything to hide" - sounds familiar ?) to the impact of the government spying on its citizen. 24 years are a long time & that part of history is not as well-ingrained in the collective memory as the Holocaust. :-(

Its always struck me as odd that Germans seem to be so hot on privacy but seem fine with having mandatory ID cards and with the police being able to demand you show it.

Coming from another country that has mandatory ID cards it does not seem odd to me. How do you confirm someone's identity otherwise?

Maybe you are thinking that criminals can always have fake IDs so having an ID is pointless?

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#36

Post by bediger4000 »

mark-r wrote: post #16
oceanstone wrote: post #8

Assuming this level of unconstitutional surveillance continues, what can we do? Here are some of my ideas: Send encrypted emails, to communicate long distances. Use the internet way less. Use cell phones only to arrange real life meetups. Hang out & talk to people in real life. Never have a meaningful discussion "over the air".

Since much of the information is used to find out who you hang out with, your strategy doesn't help as much as you think. Guilt by association, you know.

"Much of the information"? Given that the metadata (a.k.a. "CDR" or Call Data Record) is getting hoovered up in all this, about the only thing such a mass of data can be used for is guilt by association. The telco's don't match up CDR with a captured audio stream, so that's done by the NSA (or whoever). They're not going to be able to do that matching, or the semantic analysis of what's said, very often. Therefore, the ONLY thing the metadata can do is determine guilt by association.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#37

Post by penguindev »

lispm wrote: post #23

The US is in need for a full operating system upgrade. Like going from Mac OS 9 to OS X. Not a .1 upgrade. Obama delivered a Microsoft-style upgrade. You were promised 'hope' and 'change'. What you got is a worse version of Microsoft Windows with lots of spyware and a built-in 'security' system.

Meh, the hypervisor(s) have all the power, and they aren't even afraid to hide it these days.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#38

Post by sentenza »

What I find suspiciously absent from the relevations so far is the DNA angle. If the STASI had had todays technology, they would have tapped all phones, stored all data, and collected DNA samples wherever they can. Assuming that all spy agencies think more or less alike on the issue of data gathering, why haven't we heard of the NSA collecting DNA samples?

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#39

Post by nekojima »

"The Lives of Others" (Das Leben der Anderen) is an excellent German film that dramatically shows the intrusiveness of the Stasi (secret police) into daily life in the former East Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others

In the film you can see some of the techniques used by Wolfgang Schmidt and his colleagues.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#40

Post by sentenza »

kamjam wrote: post #31
blumentopf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data ret…

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen.

I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation on police and criminal justice. No matter how you turn it, this cannot be interpreted as anything else than a "spit in your face" gesture towards the rest or Europe. We now get the uneasy feeling that the current and past governments of the UK more or less hate us.

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