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Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

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51–60 of 134 posts

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#51
post #16

Assuming this level of unconstitutional surveillance continues, what can we do? Here are some of my ideas: Send encrypted emails, to communicate long distances. Use the internet way less. Use cell phones only to arrange real life meetups. Hang out & talk to people in real life. Never have a meaningful discussion "over the air".

Since much of the information is used to find out who you hang out with, your strategy doesn't help as much as you think. Guilt by association, you know.

[deleted]

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#52
post #23

The US is in need for a full operating system upgrade. Like going from Mac OS 9 to OS X. Not a .1 upgrade. Obama delivered a Microsoft-style upgrade. You were promised 'hope' and 'change'. What you got is a worse version of Microsoft Windows with lots of spyware and a built-in 'security' system.

We need to re-write the damn kernel

Let's call it HURD!

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#53
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation…

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too).

I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI

The UK doesn't hate the rest of Europe, but clearly each nation will play its hand for its own political reasons.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#54
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation…

I think hate is a very harsh word. But I agree with your sentiments about the UK spying on everyone - esp given EU specific privacy laws and recent cases of EU law against Google, Facebook etc. Pretty disgusting really given all the rhetoric they spew, but EVERYONE has that uneasy feeling now. We've always said the UK gov't were just lap dogs for the US, this just proves it somewhat more.

I'm actually surprised more hasn't been made of the UK involvement on this (but I'm currently not in Europe so difficult to gauge the reactions)

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#55
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its always struck me as odd that Germans seem to be so hot on privacy but seem fine with having mandatory ID cards and with the police being able to demand you show it.

As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong), there is an ID card or a functional equivalent thereof in most if not all countries, as the ability to verify someone's identity is pretty much a requirement for a modern society. Whether it's an actual "ID card" or a passport, birth certificate, driver's license, social security number, whatever doesn't really matter IMO. As for having to reveal/prove my identity to the…

Yes but in the UK having a passport is not required. And a short while ago on on here some one living in Germany commented that it was funny how it was the Non Ethnic Germans that got stopped a lot more.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#56
Clarification: Merkel said "Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland", not “the Internet is new to all of us.”.

Now Neuland does not just mean "new", but "new land". Similar as America or Africa was new land after 1500. So it means, the internet is ripe to conquer it.

Merkel herself was a former Stasi member, known as IM-Erika (Informal Member Erika). Germany is currently tapping more phones, then DDR ever had. We do not have a PRISM scandal, but a law called Vorratsdatenspeicherung.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#57

"The Lives of Others" (Das Leben der Anderen) is an excellent German film that dramatically shows the intrusiveness of the Stasi (secret police) into daily life in the former East Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others In the film you can see some of the techniques used by Wolfgang Schmidt and his colleagues.

Ironically enough, the lead actor (Ulrich Mühe[1]) had really been under Stasi surveillance; a surveillance to which his then wife allegedly collaborated. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_M%C3%BChe

this is the most destructive aspect of surveilance state - it is not that the state, ie. its proper officers and facilities, are doing - after all one can reasonably expect them to do all sort of nefarious things one can imagine and thus one is considered reasonably warned, it is about anybody (even friends and family) can happen to be a secret informant and collaborator. In case of USA the secretly imposed gag orders is a big step toward it.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#58

Assuming this level of unconstitutional surveillance continues, what can we do? Here are some of my ideas: Send encrypted emails, to communicate long distances. Use the internet way less. Use cell phones only to arrange real life meetups. Hang out & talk to people in real life. Never have a meaningful discussion "over the air".

Those are all passive responses. Not meaning to be critical but they are the best case response that the government could hope for.

How about picketing outside the office of your Congressman/woman? We're invisible with passive responses. I think as a people we need to get over the sense of embarrassment we feel when we gather as group for a political cause.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#59

    Dagmar Hovestaedt is the spokeswoman for the German  
    Stasi Records Agency, which showed 88,000 people last 
    year what the Stasi had gathered on them. She said the 
    U.S. should consider doing the same.
The Stasi Records Agency is known in Germany as "Gauck Behörde"[1], because for ten years its head was the anti-communist civil rights activist Joachim Gauck.

Gauck is now President of Germany and when Barack Obama was in Berlin they met and according to the schedule talked for one hour.

I was curious which topics they discussed, but unfortunately it was not covered in the press.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Commissioner_for_the_St...

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#60
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data ret…

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

> We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them

Er, but this is completely imaginary. The UK has derogations from more of the optional stuff than nearly any other member state, and has a poor record for implementing the mandatory stuff.

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