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Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

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Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#41

Post by lispm »

ajross wrote: post #32
lispm wrote: post #23

The US is in need for a full operating system upgrade. Like going from Mac OS 9 to OS X. Not a .1 upgrade. Obama delivered a Microsoft-style upgrade. You were promised 'hope' and 'change'. What you got is a worse version of Microsoft Windows with lots of spyware and a built-in 'security' system.

Right. Also a federal guarantee of accessible health coverage, the end to two wars (and the notable lack of any new ones), two supreme court justices with quite acceptable records on civil liberties, and currently a reasonable shot at bringing federal immigration law into line with the size of the actual immigrant workforce. I wasn't able to fit all that into your OS metaphor, sorry. Less rhetoric, more policy debate…

The US is struggling with basics. Universal health care is still controversial and the next conservative government will get rid of it as fast as they can. It's 'socialism'. Let's see when the justices will bring back civil liberties. Even they won't care about my liberties as a German and full scale spying will go on on my communication. Guantanamo is still open. The US is military active in Syria, Pakistan, ... Everyday.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#43

Post by pstuart »

sentenza wrote: post #38

What I find suspiciously absent from the relevations so far is the DNA angle. If the STASI had had todays technology, they would have tapped all phones, stored all data, and collected DNA samples wherever they can. Assuming that all spy agencies think more or less alike on the issue of data gathering, why haven't we heard of the NSA collecting DNA samples?

Not that it could go wrong there....

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/How-innocent-man-s-DNA-w...

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#44

Post by blumentopf »

kamjam wrote: post #31
blumentopf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data ret…

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

The situation isn't really better in Germany. The Constitutional Court (and current Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger) is our last, best and only line of defense against the security hardliners in the conservative party (CDU/CSU).

Since the ruling of the Constitutional Court, whenever there was some crime, there'd be the predictable knee-jerk reaction by Hans-Peter Uhl (CSU) that it wouldn't have happened if we had data retention. And equally predictable, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger from the liberal democrats (FDP) would say "Nein". There's even a website to look up whether Uhl has called for data retention (hatuhlschonvdsgefordert.de).

Federal elections are coming up on September 22 and it's likely that we'll get a grand coalition again (CDU/CSU + SPD). That would mark the end of Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger's tenure as Justice Minister and it would be a boon for the hardliners. Heaven forbid!

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#45

Post by 1morepassword »

feral wrote: post #20

The EU, which Germany is a major part of, passed the Data Retention Directive [0] in 2006. That directive required every state in the EU to pass laws that all their citizens telecommunications metadata would be stored for at least 6 months, and often more, up to 2 years. As I understand it, this means all 'metadata' is required to be stored, including the source and destination for every phonecall and text message, i…

The EU data retention directive really doesn't compare to what's happening in the US. It merely instructs ISP's and telco's to keep their logs stored for a minimal period of time.

It's about keeping the metadata around "just in case" potential evidence isn't destroyed, and even this is already extremely controversial and is still being challenged.

The law still applies when it comes to getting actual access to that data, and just because the Irish may have thrown due process out of the window doesn't mean everyone else has, and certainly not the Germans.

The data retention doesn't cover the actual contents of the communications, and it doesn't give any government or intelligence agency the right to access the data outside the legal framework that already existed before the internet was even a thing.

It doesn't even come close to what the US is doing.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#46

Post by Historiopode »

nekojima wrote: post #39

"The Lives of Others" (Das Leben der Anderen) is an excellent German film that dramatically shows the intrusiveness of the Stasi (secret police) into daily life in the former East Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others In the film you can see some of the techniques used by Wolfgang Schmidt and his colleagues.

Ironically enough, the lead actor (Ulrich Mühe[1]) had really been under Stasi surveillance; a surveillance to which his then wife allegedly collaborated.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_M%C3%BChe

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#47

Post by jlgreco »

grannyg00se wrote: post #22
coldtea wrote: post #21

"Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs" Might as well have written: "Memories of segregation and lynching color African American's view of modern day bigots". I mean the "color" part tries to make it as something strange (or even bad, some kind of "distortion") is happening, when it's the most natural thing in the world: actual historical experience with the issue, makes German's more in…

But this guy was a colonel in the Stasi. If a similar interview with someone who did participate in lynchings were conducted, I don't think your second title would be all that far off. But racial bigotry isn't the hot issue right now. I think it's helpful to draw parallels to the past - and a title like that might help encourage people to actually read .

> But racial bigotry isn't the hot issue right now.

It seems to be in a limited extent, though not for news items that are relevant on HN.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#48

Post by JumpCrisscross »

[deleted] wrote: post #15
griffordson wrote: post #3

A choice quote: Even Schmidt, 73, who headed one of the more infamous departments in the infamous Stasi, called himself appalled. The dark side to gathering such a broad, seemingly untargeted, amount of information is obvious, he said. “It is the height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used,” he said. “This is the nature of secret government organizations. The only way to protect the…

[deleted]

He meant naivete, children who understand not the storied darkness of the toys they play with.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#49

Post by jlgreco »

agilebyte wrote: post #35
walshemj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its always struck me as odd that Germans seem to be so hot on privacy but seem fine with having mandatory ID cards and with the police being able to demand you show it.

Coming from another country that has mandatory ID cards it does not seem odd to me. How do you confirm someone's identity otherwise? Maybe you are thinking that criminals can always have fake IDs so having an ID is pointless?

The idea that you could be required to identify yourself is probably what seems strange to them. In (at least) several US states the police can require you to identify yourself, but telling them your name is all that is required. Americans have an aversion to "papers please", because for decades that is one of the things that we felt distinguished ourselves from certain other countries.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#50

Post by krbbltr »

walshemj wrote: post #17
hiddenfeatures wrote: post #6

In my experience over the last few weeks, younger Germans (my age, 30 years & younger) are blissfully ignorant ("I don't have anything to hide" - sounds familiar ?) to the impact of the government spying on its citizen. 24 years are a long time & that part of history is not as well-ingrained in the collective memory as the Holocaust. :-(

Its always struck me as odd that Germans seem to be so hot on privacy but seem fine with having mandatory ID cards and with the police being able to demand you show it.

As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong), there is an ID card or a functional equivalent thereof in most if not all countries, as the ability to verify someone's identity is pretty much a requirement for a modern society. Whether it's an actual "ID card" or a passport, birth certificate, driver's license, social security number, whatever doesn't really matter IMO.

As for having to reveal/prove my identity to the police: I could do without that, but I consider it mostly a non-issue. In practice it happens rarely, and if it does the police officers tend to be pretty friendly and reasonable. Case in point, one of the two or three times this has happend to me in my life, my ID was invalid as it had expired several months before. They were basically like "Well you better get a new one soon, m'kay?" and then sent me on my way. YMMV of course.

The big difference though between the ID card thing and privacy violations by spying is that the spying happens behind people's backs, and they may never know how broadly their rights are violated until one day the gathered information is used against them. There can be no effective oversight and that's why it must not be allowed to happen in the first place.

If on the other hand the police started abusing their authority – acting like dicks, grabbing people en masse to check their IDs on every street corner, it would be immediately obvious to everyone and could presumably be corrected (by vote, protest, civil disobedience, etc).

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