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Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

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Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#51

Post by bdehaaff »

mqzaidi wrote: post #27
marshray wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with > However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you. And it's basically true. But I thought the line > You are overhead. Was too harsh and a slam. If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

There are 2 specialized positions (not roles) that I have been able to eliminate in a couple of successful projects (in a startup). These are Product Management and Quality Assurance. I think both the tasks are important enough to be entrusted to engineers, rather than getting someone else do it.

How did that work for you? Were the engineers assessing the overall market and competitive landscape and training the rest of the organization how to position and sell the product? Please tell us more about the project and how it went.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#52

Post by bdehaaff »

adamrubin wrote: post #44
austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I have two hands to clap with. Does that mean I can fire the PM? :)

If you are an engineer and don't trust the PM, you probably already have effectively "fired" him/her or at a minimum made life miserable? True?

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#53

Post by bdehaaff »

weixiyen wrote: post #39
doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

Eh—hoarding credit is sort of the M.O. of a really great product manager. A PM has to compete with all the other PMs to get her features implemented. And if the PM's feature gets implemented first, this PM looks super productive. I think if you're an product manager looking to be the best product manager, taking credit is imperative. Because at the end of the day, your feature is just paper until it is implemented. N…

It's difficult to respect anybody who publicly takes credit for the success of their team. People in leadership positions should always look to defer. It's important to remember that you are only a leader if people choose to follow you. Otherwise, you are just leveraging your position, and that's probably not a good long-term strategy, nor is it the right thing to do. Credit means much more when it is given, not take…

Totally agree. Plus, it's in a PM's selfish long-term interests to keep the team motivated by deflecting praise.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#54

Post by bdehaaff »

five18pm wrote: post #38

Let me add couple more: (1) Asking for a feature and then never showing up once when it is being built. "Hey, we are adding this page here. Is it okay?" . "Hey, is this workflow good?" . Once implemented, come around and ask "Why is this built this way?" (2) Not being interested in any feature that engineering is interested in. It is okay to talk to customers all the time, but once in a while turn around and talk to…

I totally agree. I think the best PMs actually leave at least 20% of their roadmap for engineers to tell them what else needs to be built.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#55

Post by bdehaaff »

madkins1868 wrote: post #35

Oh great, another Product Manager/Project Manager/XYZ Manager has pissed off the software engineering masses post again. Another "we can live without you, but you can't live without us scribe...". Really? You mean I can't go find a top notch, $15/hr engineer to build in Kathmandu to build the product to my specs? Get a hold of yourself boys. You're not all that. I can (and have) built plenty of products with a wide a…

I built my career as a PM before becoming a CEO, so this might not be just another one of those posts. Are there market-leading products that have been built with lead $15/hr engineers? Please call out a few, I would love to learn about a few of them.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#56

Post by gfody »

bdehaaff wrote: post #50
gfody wrote: post #43

If you're having non-technical product managers owning technical products you're asking for trouble. Since when did any non-technical product person become the domain master go-to-guy for any technical product? I have seen product managers provide great leadership on technical products but they have always been supremely capable and the engineers respected them for it. Some product person with an inflated ego spinnin…

Exactly, all of the "what you might think" points were exaggerated but not intended to be ridiculous. Great PM works and respects the value of what engineers can contribute during the plan AND build efforts.

I think I am responding more to the way you have set the scene where we have non-technical product managers owning technical products. I think if this situation exists you've actually got a fucked company or at least some serious org-level trouble with the division of roles and responsibilities and probably not something you could fix by head-shrinking your product people.

Actually it's funny if you think about it the only way non-technical product managers maintain their positions owning technical products is by finding such companies and actively partaking in all the what you may think behavior. Forgive me if this whole piece is intended as subtle irony in which case I say well done and humbly accept my swoosh.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#57

Post by hkarthik »

michaelochurch wrote: post #46
hkarthik wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tough transition, but I've seen it done in a few ways: 1) Internally apply for a Product Management job. Expect to have put in at least 3 years within the company and make sure you know the business domain better than most other engineers. Play politics successfully and hop on the first open PM position available. You may have to pick a product in pretty bad shape as a proving ground. 2) Build your own product…

This is good advice but the reality of it is goddamn depressing. "Proving ground"... "at least 3 years"... "MBA from a top school". We fucking lost our industry. Because we failed, we have to deal with executives. Product management shouldn't be a special job for high-horse do-nothings with MBAs and connections. It should be a concern for all engineers; something everyone should care about and be able to influence.

Ha! I guess my negative bent around becoming a PM bled through. I have considered going into a PM role as a future career move but the reality of it usually depresses me into sticking with engineering.

It is pretty depressing that in most software companies, engineering makes little to no decisions about features, market strategy, or operational efficiency. You really have to get out of engineering to have any influence in those areas.

With engineering being so lucrative, you see a lot of self-selection where the weaker engineers end up making these transitions, which only makes the whole situation worse.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#58

Post by digisth »

I'd like to add "Don't give estimates to other stakeholders (especially a client!) without talking to engineering." Even if you have some technical expertise, your guess may be off due to a lack of knowledge of the specifics of the platform, framework, gotchas, other priorities the team may have and a million other things.

The reality is that you can get yourself (and your team) into a bind if you commit to an estimate/schedule without discussing the details of what will be delivered with engineering. Don't do that.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#59

Post by krembo »

vijayr wrote: post #18

slightly off topic - anyone moved from coding to product management? I thoroughly enjoy product management - market research, coming up with new product ideas, feature ideas etc. No clue how to make the transition though :(

Technical Product Managers (TPMs) are a precious and valuable asset for any company. I know it because I do it :-) No, really. If you have a good tech background, with a significat expirience from development aspects, it cannot be compared by any mean to a regual product manager. I talk to the biz people the ones with the suits, and I talk to DBAs and developers on a daily basis. I am like a bridge between the two worlds.

A good advise for one who wants to do the transition would be to just to dare to dream. Suggest products, get involved in all stages of the product's lifecycle. Be proactive, and after a while go and ask to be a PM. It's not a promotion as PM are not superior to devs (except from me). It's like a new role in your career, much different from a programmer.

In addition I would strongly suggest to build something on your own. Just do it, and you will learn a lot about specifying a product, about marketing, about managing the project of your own. If you come with this on your record, you are like 100 times in a better position.

Forget about MBA. It is useless and just dumb to do it. Go get some good books from Amazon, read 37signals series and other books which Amazon will recommend you in this area. God forbid the missed souls of the MBAs, but there is a reason Google don't hire them.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#60

Post by hamburglar »

I read most of it, but you really lost me in the first sentence. If you are actually the CEO, that's one thing, but one sure fire way to piss off the engineers is to think of yourself as "the boss" simply because your role has "manager" in the title. Everywhere I've worked, the engineers answer to an engineering manager, and the engineering manager is a peer to the PM.
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