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Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

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Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#41

Post by coldtea »

bdehaaff wrote: post #17
marshray wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with > However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you. And it's basically true. But I thought the line > You are overhead. Was too harsh and a slam. If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

I have been a PM for most of my career. Lose engineering and you have no ongoing product, sales and you can not sell it, support and you can not service it. You get the picture. PM is not required for the basic operations of the business. Great PM is fundamental to success, but not to the day-to-day management of the business.

There are such things as "one developer shops".

There are no "one PM shops".

Case closed.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#42

Post by k1w1 »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

Eh—hoarding credit is sort of the M.O. of a really great product manager. A PM has to compete with all the other PMs to get her features implemented. And if the PM's feature gets implemented first, this PM looks super productive. I think if you're an product manager looking to be the best product manager, taking credit is imperative. Because at the end of the day, your feature is just paper until it is implemented. N…

I think you have your logic backwards. Do you think the engineering team will implement the feature first for the PM that hogs the spotlight and takes the credit, or for the PM who gives credit to the team that implements her ideas? You need to let the love flow down to all of the team.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#43

Post by gfody »

If you're having non-technical product managers owning technical products you're asking for trouble. Since when did any non-technical product person become the domain master go-to-guy for any technical product? I have seen product managers provide great leadership on technical products but they have always been supremely capable and the engineers respected them for it.

Some product person with an inflated ego spinning buzzwords is not going to be respected by engineering and will not succeed in influencing them in any way.

What you may think: I have been around engineers a long time and know the difference between NoSQL and MySQL. And there is no doubt that I would have been a great engineer if I had lerned to program, found it rewarding, and led a ton of open source projects.

Anyone who seriously thinks this way is most likely hated by engineers and probably gets made fun of a lot behind his back.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#44

Post by adamrubin »

austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I have two hands to clap with. Does that mean I can fire the PM? :)

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#45

Post by bdehaaff »

fredsanford wrote: post #28

You know... This brings a part of my life back to mind that I hoped to forget... FS, if you're reading and recognize this, I still respect the hell out of you and wish you well. I can't go into too much depth here without revealing more than allowed. I am purposely vague and I apologize if that bothers or offends you but I don't want to see any litigation in my future. I don't know how to take this article. I wish so…

Thanks for the thoughts. I wish we had started Aha! (www.aha.io) earlier and were writing on PM topics like this when it would have been useful to you.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#46

Post by michaelochurch »

hkarthik wrote: post #40
vijayr wrote: post #18

slightly off topic - anyone moved from coding to product management? I thoroughly enjoy product management - market research, coming up with new product ideas, feature ideas etc. No clue how to make the transition though :(

It's a tough transition, but I've seen it done in a few ways: 1) Internally apply for a Product Management job. Expect to have put in at least 3 years within the company and make sure you know the business domain better than most other engineers. Play politics successfully and hop on the first open PM position available. You may have to pick a product in pretty bad shape as a proving ground. 2) Build your own product…

This is good advice but the reality of it is goddamn depressing. "Proving ground"... "at least 3 years"... "MBA from a top school". We fucking lost our industry. Because we failed, we have to deal with executives.

Product management shouldn't be a special job for high-horse do-nothings with MBAs and connections. It should be a concern for all engineers; something everyone should care about and be able to influence.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#47

Post by bdehaaff »

jmspring wrote: post #34
fredsanford wrote: post #28

You know... This brings a part of my life back to mind that I hoped to forget... FS, if you're reading and recognize this, I still respect the hell out of you and wish you well. I can't go into too much depth here without revealing more than allowed. I am purposely vague and I apologize if that bothers or offends you but I don't want to see any litigation in my future. I don't know how to take this article. I wish so…

A bad PM can be countered with good engineering management. That said, I've been at a place that had both. Weekends were planned into the schedule and they thought that was the norm. At a certain point, the brain drain was pretty serious (myself included). Not meeting deadlines isn't always an engineering issue it is a management and planning issue. Another more recent example, boot strapped startup. General engineer…

Agreed. Thanks for the comments. We actually wrote recently about a "goal first" approach where you start with the strategy and why you are doing something and then clearly articulate the features in a collaborative way. Consider checking it out here - http://blog.aha.io/index.php/goal-first-a-product-roadmappin...

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#48

Post by michaelochurch »

jasonlotito wrote: post #33
michaelochurch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realized that it was horrible as written and I apologize. In that vein, I fixed it (replaced with "executive's gender of interest"). It was reverse-pattern-matched off of a certain company where the desk ornament happened to be female, but I've seen male desk ornament dynamics as well. That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. That's especially true in the…

> That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. Yeah, that's bullshit. Maybe in certain sectors, but unless you have something to back that up, I'm calling bullshit.

Maybe in certain sectors, but unless you have something to back that up

Experience.

Larger companies tend not to be that way, though. I saw a ton of that stuff in VC-istan, but none at Google or in the banks.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#49

Post by bdehaaff »

danso wrote: post #25

Being an engineer (by schooling) myself...I've always found it confounding how non-technical product managers do what they do...I've seen plenty of "shut up non-techie" posts (including this OP) but are there any really great non-techie product manager musings on this topic, explaining how they are able to reliably judge timeframes and output without having hands-on experience? I do think producers are valuable...in…

I am the author and I built my career as a "non tech background" PM before I became a CEO. My super secret to success (not really that secret). Be great at explaining the "whys" and "whats" and work closely with engineering on the "hows." Understand what it will take to build something before agreeing on the roadmap. Building great product requires awesome PM and engineering.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#50

Post by bdehaaff »

gfody wrote: post #43

If you're having non-technical product managers owning technical products you're asking for trouble. Since when did any non-technical product person become the domain master go-to-guy for any technical product? I have seen product managers provide great leadership on technical products but they have always been supremely capable and the engineers respected them for it. Some product person with an inflated ego spinnin…

Exactly, all of the "what you might think" points were exaggerated but not intended to be ridiculous. Great PM works and respects the value of what engineers can contribute during the plan AND build efforts.
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