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Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

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Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#21

Post by ashcairo »

seivan wrote: post #11
michaelochurch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, quite good and I agree with it. Minor nit: (1) you used the term "executive team" and I hate that phrase. Don't get me started on teamism. I hate this cargo-cult bullshit where every group of people is called a team . Executives are a court , in the medieval sense. Also, I still sense that you're writing from a closed-allocation perspective. (I'm not even sure that proper open allocation would have a PM/e…

"Closed allocation is doomed to produce garbage and no amount about of telling other people to be better will correct for its foundational problems." I've been thinking on this lately, it does make sense. Never been in a position to try it until now.

I imagine you can do both in a really small or one man team, but to do both in anything bigger will require a very difficult context switch between job functions.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#22

Post by marshray »

bdehaaff wrote: post #17
marshray wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with > However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you. And it's basically true. But I thought the line > You are overhead. Was too harsh and a slam. If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

I have been a PM for most of my career. Lose engineering and you have no ongoing product, sales and you can not sell it, support and you can not service it. You get the picture. PM is not required for the basic operations of the business. Great PM is fundamental to success, but not to the day-to-day management of the business.

As an engineer I really appreciate the work of good PMs.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#23

Post by jeremy6d »

michaelochurch wrote: post #4
doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

Eh—hoarding credit is sort of the M.O. of a really great product manager. A PM has to compete with all the other PMs to get her features implemented. And if the PM's feature gets implemented first, this PM looks super productive. I think if you're an product manager looking to be the best product manager, taking credit is imperative. Because at the end of the day, your feature is just paper until it is implemented. N…

I sympathize with the enormous friction between folks who assign work and folks who finish it. I don't. If you create this separation between the two categories, you'll have a terrible organization and when it caves in on itself, I will cheer that process on. That's why open allocation is morally superior (in addition to working better). People "assign" work to themselves (without noise) and then do it. None of this…

I cannot praise this comment enough.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#24

Post by Whitespace »

michaelochurch wrote: post #19
vijayr wrote: post #18

slightly off topic - anyone moved from coding to product management? I thoroughly enjoy product management - market research, coming up with new product ideas, feature ideas etc. No clue how to make the transition though :(

No clue how to make the transition though :( Become [executive's gender of interest] and learn how to sit on a desk.

> Become female and learn how to sit on a desk.

Are you fucking kidding me? I don't have enough karma to downvote you, someone please do the honors.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#25

Post by danso »

Being an engineer (by schooling) myself...I've always found it confounding how non-technical product managers do what they do...I've seen plenty of "shut up non-techie" posts (including this OP) but are there any really great non-techie product manager musings on this topic, explaining how they are able to reliably judge timeframes and output without having hands-on experience?

I do think producers are valuable...in the art/entertainment world, for example...you don't have to be an actor/model/writer to be vital to a production's success. However, in software, it just seems that the implementation of the process is so vital in fully realizing the gains that code can bring you, that if you have a product manager who doesn't understand that, than the PM can do as much harm as good.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#26

Post by [deleted] »

Whitespace wrote: post #24
michaelochurch wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No clue how to make the transition though :( Become [executive's gender of interest] and learn how to sit on a desk.

> Become female and learn how to sit on a desk. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't have enough karma to downvote you, someone please do the honors.

[deleted]

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#27

Post by mqzaidi »

marshray wrote: post #14
austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with > However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you. And it's basically true. But I thought the line > You are overhead. Was too harsh and a slam. If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

There are 2 specialized positions (not roles) that I have been able to eliminate in a couple of successful projects (in a startup). These are Product Management and Quality Assurance. I think both the tasks are important enough to be entrusted to engineers, rather than getting someone else do it.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#28

Post by fredsanford »

You know... This brings a part of my life back to mind that I hoped to forget... FS, if you're reading and recognize this, I still respect the hell out of you and wish you well. I can't go into too much depth here without revealing more than allowed. I am purposely vague and I apologize if that bothers or offends you but I don't want to see any litigation in my future.

I don't know how to take this article. I wish some of the insight had been around when it mattered to me (working 60 - 80 hour weeks because of management over-promising because they wouldn't take the time to understand the scope because the PM was sure it was "trivial") but some of it also smacks of the PM thinking of her/himself as some kind of deity whose wishes would make the work happen magically. Me, personally, I like my deities to be left in church where I can ignore them as I deem necessary...

Anyway, the best PM like being I ever had contact with was a QA department head who had been in the line of business his whole life and knew exactly what something needed to do to succeed in that business. He had a second in command that was also a lifer. Between those 2 guys, when they got interested in something, that something did some smooth sailing. If they were disinterested or too busy with a fire, all hell would break loose.

Well, at this particular company, every time all hell would break loose, they would, instead of fixing the original software, buy something similar and try to massage it into the product. During the ~19 months or so I was there, they bought, had been in talks to buy or were suing the seller over the bought product not working for 4 different products. The funny thing was, all of these products were based on disparate technology... The original software was built in a combination of Delphi, Borland C++ and the Borland DB engine. Of the bought software, One was Java based, it wouldn't run for 12 or more hours at a time. One was based on .Net and it crashed more than it worked. 2 were based on popular C++ App Frameworks. Those 2 kinda worked, sometimes, if you held your mouth right and kept your support contracts up to date.

Now, we have a company with at least 4 different technologies with maybe 2 of the original developers of any of the software left. The only guy that remains with any sense and sanity is the QA guy because his family is tied to the company. And all along he's been yelling/screaming/cajoling/nurturing, whatever he can do to get the management to leave the programmers alone and so they can get the work done.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#29

Post by ihsw »

marshray wrote: post #14
austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with > However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you. And it's basically true. But I thought the line > You are overhead. Was too harsh and a slam. If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

It's harsh but it's quite true. Engineers (and other people!) would otherwise have to devote time and effort towards product goals and timeline management -- it would likely be only half as good as a full-time PM but they'd get it done without trouble.

Product managers are an extension of people's normal employee workflows but expanded for coordination and communication, however there's nothing preventing the PM from exercising minimal responsibility on things like product design and whatnot.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#30

Post by michaelochurch »

Whitespace wrote: post #24
michaelochurch wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No clue how to make the transition though :( Become [executive's gender of interest] and learn how to sit on a desk.

> Become female and learn how to sit on a desk. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't have enough karma to downvote you, someone please do the honors.

I realized that it was horrible as written and I apologize. In that vein, I fixed it (replaced with "executive's gender of interest"). It was reverse-pattern-matched off of a certain company where the desk ornament happened to be female, but I've seen male desk ornament dynamics as well.

That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. That's especially true in the non-technical/subjective roles where ability is so hard to evaluate.

Most corporate executives did their 20s wrong and want to Feel Like A (Wo)Man now that they're older. Which means that for non-tech/subjective proteges they tap either (a) young, attractive people of the opposite sex who give them a "hip" image, or (b) unscrupulous young men ~20 years their junior through whom they live vicariously.

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