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Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

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Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#11

Post by seivan »

michaelochurch wrote: post #10
bdehaaff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I deleted "management" from the post. The best orgs (and also the most successful) are those where everyone has a voice. Maybe you will keep reading now and let me know if anything else in the post really tweaks you the wrong way.

In general, quite good and I agree with it. Minor nit: (1) you used the term "executive team" and I hate that phrase. Don't get me started on teamism. I hate this cargo-cult bullshit where every group of people is called a team . Executives are a court , in the medieval sense. Also, I still sense that you're writing from a closed-allocation perspective. (I'm not even sure that proper open allocation would have a PM/e…

"Closed allocation is doomed to produce garbage and no amount about of telling other people to be better will correct for its foundational problems."

I've been thinking on this lately, it does make sense. Never been in a position to try it until now.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#12

Post by abbottry »

bdehaaff wrote: post #9
austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I am not sure what your point is. Where in the blog post does it say that I am more important than they are? My career has been defined by being a PM and I have made all of those mistakes myself. In fact, our new company -- Aha.io -- is built for PMs.

"However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you."

Whatever. I like the article, it makes some good points.

It's hard to write an article explaining one side of a situation like this without 'taking sides'.

I think the the PM role/title has become such a generic position that articles like this one are really taking a stab at anyone non-engineering, not that I am upset by it.

As a startup founder, meshing technical teams and non-technical teams is extremely difficult to do. The work environments, thought processes, personalities, etc. are so different.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#13

Post by bdehaaff »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

Eh—hoarding credit is sort of the M.O. of a really great product manager. A PM has to compete with all the other PMs to get her features implemented. And if the PM's feature gets implemented first, this PM looks super productive. I think if you're an product manager looking to be the best product manager, taking credit is imperative. Because at the end of the day, your feature is just paper until it is implemented. N…

I appreciate the comment but disagree. Leading great product teams is based on trust and trust is earned by success. Ongoing success depends on a highly motivated team and praise drives motivation as well as any other reward. Leaders do not succeed over time by hoarding kudos. They share it freely.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#14

Post by marshray »

austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with

> However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you.

And it's basically true. But I thought the line

> You are overhead.

Was too harsh and a slam.

If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#15

Post by bdehaaff »

bdehaaff wrote: post #9
austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I am not sure what your point is. Where in the blog post does it say that I am more important than they are? My career has been defined by being a PM and I have made all of those mistakes myself. In fact, our new company -- Aha.io -- is built for PMs.

Ok. Just a misunderstanding. Thanks for the comments.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#16

Post by austenallred »

bdehaaff wrote: post #9
austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I am not sure what your point is. Where in the blog post does it say that I am more important than they are? My career has been defined by being a PM and I have made all of those mistakes myself. In fact, our new company -- Aha.io -- is built for PMs.

I read that wrong - I thought you were an engineer complaining about PMs

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#17

Post by bdehaaff »

marshray wrote: post #14
austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with > However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you. And it's basically true. But I thought the line > You are overhead. Was too harsh and a slam. If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

I have been a PM for most of my career. Lose engineering and you have no ongoing product, sales and you can not sell it, support and you can not service it. You get the picture. PM is not required for the basic operations of the business. Great PM is fundamental to success, but not to the day-to-day management of the business.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#19

Post by michaelochurch »

vijayr wrote: post #18

slightly off topic - anyone moved from coding to product management? I thoroughly enjoy product management - market research, coming up with new product ideas, feature ideas etc. No clue how to make the transition though :(

No clue how to make the transition though :(

Become [executive's gender of interest] and learn how to sit on a desk.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#20

Post by michaelochurch »

seivan wrote: post #11
michaelochurch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, quite good and I agree with it. Minor nit: (1) you used the term "executive team" and I hate that phrase. Don't get me started on teamism. I hate this cargo-cult bullshit where every group of people is called a team . Executives are a court , in the medieval sense. Also, I still sense that you're writing from a closed-allocation perspective. (I'm not even sure that proper open allocation would have a PM/e…

"Closed allocation is doomed to produce garbage and no amount about of telling other people to be better will correct for its foundational problems." I've been thinking on this lately, it does make sense. Never been in a position to try it until now.

What is your strategy for trying it? Are you starting a company?
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