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Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

cs.jhu.edu

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Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#211

Post by astrodust »

genwin wrote: post #178
astrodust wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So should we be writing checks to Germany when a German-educated person comes over to the US and starts a business? After all, Germany should be compensated for their loss, right? If an American chooses to move to Singapore to work for an international bank, then maybe they should be forced to pay back the subsidy on their education, right? Here's the thing: Education is not a waste of money. It costs almost nothing…

Can you knock off the straw man arguments? Not wanting my taxes to be wasted isn't a valueless point just because I'm one of many taxpayers, or because the US doesn't compensate Germany when a German-educated person moves to the US, or because education is worth money to someone, or because money is wasted elsewhere, etc. If the US taxpayers' investment in foreign students who may not end up staying here is a net ben…

They're doing research in the US for a US university that collaborates directly with US corporations. What more do you want from the deal?

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#212

Post by muyuu »

moheeb wrote: post #150
muyuu wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, but why would you want to live in the US now? Just look at it. Stay with us, mate.

In case no one told you the US is awesome. There's more to a country than its government.

I've been there and although it has its things, the fear of the government, its agencies and police pretty much ruin it for me.

Last time I visited the airport experience was atrocious, enough to keep me outside of the US forever if I can help it.

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#213

Post by muyuu »

krapp wrote: post #196
muyuu wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the US is with China a step ahead everybody else Russia included. They also have the resources for this and control over the main companies spearheading these developments. Couple with a shadow federal government with absolute power, and the most sedated, naive, "cooperative" and docile population in existence. It's really a scary place to live. Surely IT jobs do pay well there though.

Just because the United States happens to be better at it at the moment, doesn't mean other governments aren't complicit or wouldn't jump at the chance for total information awareness themselves.

It's a good reason to avoid the US now.

In the long term, we're all dead.

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#214

Post by genwin »

astrodust wrote: post #211
genwin wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you knock off the straw man arguments? Not wanting my taxes to be wasted isn't a valueless point just because I'm one of many taxpayers, or because the US doesn't compensate Germany when a German-educated person moves to the US, or because education is worth money to someone, or because money is wasted elsewhere, etc. If the US taxpayers' investment in foreign students who may not end up staying here is a net ben…

They're doing research in the US for a US university that collaborates directly with US corporations. What more do you want from the deal?

I'd want the universities to fund the students out of their $multi-billion endowments, rather than get my kids to work longer to pay for it.

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#215

Post by tjgq »

genwin wrote: post #204
tjgq wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that not all research leads to concrete, patentable ideas, right?

Yes, just like not all startups are successful for VCs. The revenue generated by some of the research can pay for all the research, and patents are just one of many revenue sources for them. Johns Hopkins has an endowment of $2.5 billion. MIT has $10 billion. They can afford to pay for foreigners' educations without getting taxpayers involved. Taxpayers are involved so they can have even more money in the bank.

> Yes, just like not all startups are successful for VCs.

A dangerous analogy, because the sole criterion of success for a startup is to be financially successful, whereas there are lots of research ideas that cannot be translated into a profitable business, yet are still worthwhile to pursue. Think fundamental results in maths and physics.

I am all for universities to have sources of revenue other than taxpayer money. But I fear that making those the only sources of revenue (you did defend that in your original post) will instill a climate where researchers are prevented from pursuing research topics that cannot possibly bring in any money for their universities.

And this is not just about "knowledge for knowledge's sake", either. Think about, say, quantum mechanics or complex analysis. Would anyone have paid for the early research in these areas with the expectation of financial returns? And yet, here they are today at the basis of a number of highly profitable industries.

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#216

Post by genwin »

tjgq wrote: post #215
genwin wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, just like not all startups are successful for VCs. The revenue generated by some of the research can pay for all the research, and patents are just one of many revenue sources for them. Johns Hopkins has an endowment of $2.5 billion. MIT has $10 billion. They can afford to pay for foreigners' educations without getting taxpayers involved. Taxpayers are involved so they can have even more money in the bank.

> Yes, just like not all startups are successful for VCs. A dangerous analogy, because the sole criterion of success for a startup is to be financially successful, whereas there are lots of research ideas that cannot be translated into a profitable business, yet are still worthwhile to pursue. Think fundamental results in maths and physics. I am all for universities to have sources of revenue other than taxpayer mone…

I'm fine with spending public money for research done by domestic students or those foreign students who have stated their intention to stay in the US and have their path to citizenship approved in advance. For other students the university should pay for it out of their endowment. In other words the public's money should be spent judiciously, not frivolously.

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#217

Post by tjgq »

genwin wrote: post #216
tjgq wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, just like not all startups are successful for VCs. A dangerous analogy, because the sole criterion of success for a startup is to be financially successful, whereas there are lots of research ideas that cannot be translated into a profitable business, yet are still worthwhile to pursue. Think fundamental results in maths and physics. I am all for universities to have sources of revenue other than taxpayer mone…

I'm fine with spending public money for research done by domestic students or those foreign students who have stated their intention to stay in the US and have their path to citizenship approved in advance. For other students the university should pay for it out of their endowment. In other words the public's money should be spent judiciously, not frivolously.

I think you misunderstand what a PhD student is. A PhD candidate is supposed to generate real science, not just train to become someone who does. By that same logic, a senior researcher (American citizen or not) should not be paid by taxpayer money unless she were to promise not to leave the US in the future.

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#218

Post by genwin »

tjgq wrote: post #217
genwin wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with spending public money for research done by domestic students or those foreign students who have stated their intention to stay in the US and have their path to citizenship approved in advance. For other students the university should pay for it out of their endowment. In other words the public's money should be spent judiciously, not frivolously.

I think you misunderstand what a PhD student is. A PhD candidate is supposed to generate real science, not just train to become someone who does. By that same logic, a senior researcher (American citizen or not) should not be paid by taxpayer money unless she were to promise not to leave the US in the future.

Not by that logic. It's a safe bet that American citizens who haven't made such a promise are less likely to leave the US than are foreign PhD students who've stated their intention to stay in the US and have been cleared for a path to citizenship before they arrive, but of course are free to leave. I support public funding for both cases.

All I want is better odds they'll stay, based on the assumption that there is more supply of worthy foreign students who'd stay if they could, than demand for them. There's no good reason we shouldn't maximize the benefit to the US taxpayer, by cherry-picking the supply and paving the way to their citizenship in advance. That the PhD students do real science (i.e. a job) isn't a good enough reason to leave taxpayer money on the table.

If some foreign student is so much a wunderkind that they'll do a $million in work for their $250K outlay, but plans to leave the US, that could be an exception.

Re: Jordanian citizen was denied re-entry to the US on eve of his PhD defense at JHU

#219

Post by thirsteh »

robomartin wrote: post #127
nostromo wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-bo...

Nothing like real data. The US has over three times more immigrants than any other country. I should also note it is my belief --my belief-- that most people in the US, outside of certain groups, are for LEGAL immigration. Don't come here illegally or with a student visa and then cry foul if not welcomed. EDIT: the reference to student visas is about using them illegally to get in and then stay. It is NOT about not a…

People who make this kind of argument are often the same who say "Sweden is much more homogenous; you can't compare apples to oranges like that" whenever some success story about welfare, healthcare, democracy, or something else is used to contrast against the U.S., despite the fact that that very same page shows that Sweden has the same number of immigrants as a percentage of the population that the U.S. does.
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