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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#341

Post by flyinRyan »

Peaker wrote: post #327
flyinRyan wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confident that that will not be the answer. That and "hate us for our freedoms" are popular for war mongers because there is apparently no solution besides continuing to bomb them. But is it possible they have legitimate grievancences? Is it possible that they're human beings who are pissed off about something we're doing or have done? The saddest part is, we appear to have learned literally nothing since our han…

There are plenty of fundamentalists in the world for whom the reason is indeed religion . You're engaging in wishful thinking.

This is what you believe, this is what people who benefit from you believing that are telling you but it's nonsense. There may be poor fundamentalists who would gladly kill for religion but they have no ability to act on it. Only the rich and powerful have that capability and they're also better educated.

If you truly believe there are a group of people for whom religion is enough to make them want to kill, then the solution would be education and financial investment. Middle class people make poor martyrs. The idea that the only thing that can be done is murder them is sickening.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#342

Post by Peaker »

flyinRyan wrote: post #341
Peaker wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of fundamentalists in the world for whom the reason is indeed religion . You're engaging in wishful thinking.

This is what you believe, this is what people who benefit from you believing that are telling you but it's nonsense. There may be poor fundamentalists who would gladly kill for religion but they have no ability to act on it. Only the rich and powerful have that capability and they're also better educated. If you truly believe there are a group of people for whom religion is enough to make them want to kill, then the…

There have been plenty of middle class martyrs.

There are many religious people who openly explain that freedom is evil, and everyone should convert to Islam or face death.

You're essentially claiming that I am brainwashed, and you know the real truth instead. I'd like to claim the opposite.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#343

Post by userulluipeste »

Anderkent wrote: post #295
danboarder wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things." When I look back at history, I see that the worst people that have done the worst things are in fact people in state governments, using the powers of government against civilians.

>When I look back at history, I see that the worst people that have done the worst things are in fact people in state governments, using the powers of government against civilians. That's because you're looking at the largest damage influenced by a small group of people, instead of total amount over a period of time. Obviously the most damage done by any single person was done by a person with a lot of power, and thu…

By your logic anything can get an apology because we can always point out to a worse alternative.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#345

Post by userulluipeste »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #293
molloy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how that would have made him a "true patriot". Actually, fleeing the unjust wrath of a tyrannical government is about the most American quality there is. In any case, due to the Whistleblower Protection Act he broke no law.

I don't see how fleeing tyranny is more American than standing and fighting it.

Because this was one of the main reasons why the former immigrants (maybe even your ancestors if you're an american) had chosen America - they fled from tyranny or whatever other problem instead of doing something about it.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#346

Post by CamperBob2 »

Peaker wrote: post #342
flyinRyan wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you believe, this is what people who benefit from you believing that are telling you but it's nonsense. There may be poor fundamentalists who would gladly kill for religion but they have no ability to act on it. Only the rich and powerful have that capability and they're also better educated. If you truly believe there are a group of people for whom religion is enough to make them want to kill, then the…

There have been plenty of middle class martyrs. There are many religious people who openly explain that freedom is evil, and everyone should convert to Islam or face death. You're essentially claiming that I am brainwashed, and you know the real truth instead. I'd like to claim the opposite.

I think he just hasn't been paying attention. ("Middle class martyrs" have if anything been the rule rather than the exception in many scenarios.)

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#347

Post by jetti »

rtpg wrote: post #331
jetti wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Obviously. It's impossible to eliminate bad things completely. They would happen more without anyone providing security." To me, this argument is based on how one views human nature. Personally, I don't believe that the majority of people want to commit serious crimes but are only held back by the fact that if they did, they would be punished. Because of that belief, I don't believe that eliminating security would c…

>I don't believe that the majority of people want to commit serious crimes but are only held back by the fact that if they did, they would be punished. What is your definition of serious? Sure, most people don't want to kill others, but what about non-violent crimes. What about fraud? Not paying taxes? Although you might argue that taxes are usurping our freedom somehow, I like having infrastructure.

While I haven't truly thought about it much, I guess my definition of serious would coincide with what government calls a felony.

"What about fraud? Not paying taxes?"

Maybe I'm just naive but I don't think the average person walks around conspiring to commit fraud but is discouraged by the fact they could go to jail if caught.

As for the taxes issue, in this scenario, taxes would most likely decrease since there would be no big security machine (DoD, DHS, NSA, FBI, CIA) to feed, or at least budgets would be slashed. On top of that, there could be systems put into place that automate the taxes and make the current way of doing taxes a thing of the past. The lower taxes and the automated system could make it easy to pay taxes as well as harder to avoid paying taxes.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#348

Post by jetti »

varjag wrote: post #337
jetti wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Obviously. It's impossible to eliminate bad things completely. They would happen more without anyone providing security." To me, this argument is based on how one views human nature. Personally, I don't believe that the majority of people want to commit serious crimes but are only held back by the fact that if they did, they would be punished. Because of that belief, I don't believe that eliminating security would c…

> Personally, I don't believe that the majority of people want to commit serious crimes but are only held back by the fact that if they did, they would be punished. Because of that belief, I don't believe that eliminating security would cause an increase of bad behavior. You don't need "majority", you need just a handful of really really bad ones.

But the current system, with all of the "security" it provides, already has a handful of really really bad people that commit crimes. So why should I give up freedoms to try and stop these bad people when despite everything, crime still happens?

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#349

Post by stcredzero »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #319
aheilbut wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list. There are trade-offs to make between freedom and security, and neither the freedoms nor the security are absolute, and they never have been.

>The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list. the position you state was formed by Greek and Roman civilizations. Majority of people in these civilizations were slaves. And security was a precondition for the freedom of few at the top of these ancient societies. The American revolution was a break in that order of things. It resulted in granting of unheard of freedoms while d…

About 35 to 40% were slaves in Rome.

The American Revolution carried forward slavery.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#350

Post by stcredzero »

bicknergseng wrote: post #307
tptacek wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, when some large military power cuts off shipping lanes in the Pacific, we'd, what, threaten to nuke them? That's a better state affairs than what we have today? Conversely: what goes does a standing army of 1,127,801 people do you if your adversary has nuclear weapons?

I'm not a military strategist, and I know this isn't really an area where logic wins, but I like thinking of these scenarios at a top level anyway. OK. Assume China cuts off shipping lanes in the Pacific. They position their naval fleets in some aggressive formation over major lines (likely blockading Taiwan or something). Assumedly, they have to sink a ship or at least fire shots and take one captive. The U.S. and J…

> Assumedly
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