Live data from Hacker News

NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

blog.sfgate.com

221–230 of 359 posts

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why we need both a nuclear deterrent and a standing army of 1,127,801 people. Seems like more of an XOR.

So, when some large military power cuts off shipping lanes in the Pacific, we'd, what, threaten to nuke them? That's a better state affairs than what we have today? Conversely: what goes does a standing army of 1,127,801 people do you if your adversary has nuclear weapons?

The adversary has nuclear weapons because you (assuming you are a citizen od the US of A) have nuclear weapons.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#222
post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

"If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things."

When I look back at history, I see that the worst people that have done the worst things are in fact people in state governments, using the powers of government against civilians.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, actually all genocides were carried on by people (part of a government or not), so maybe we should eliminate people. Either that or not make broad generalizations.

Indeed. Imagine if we just killed everyone how many social problems we'd solve.... But my broader point was, larger government surveillance and national security powers won't stop genocides or wars between governments. This isn't what they are there for. They are there to prevent groups which are deemed politically dangerous ("terrorists" which evidently include nuclear protesters, environmentalists, and states' righ…

[deleted]

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#224
You americans and your "everyone is out to get us" mentality is laughable. The fact of the matter is this - what the government has done is intrinsically unconstitutional. People calling the leaker a traitor try to back it up with the fact that he signed a non-disclosue agreement and that the law approved by a secret court says PRISM is constitutional.

Well isn't this a nice, little euthyphro dillemma? If congress rules that PRISM is unconstitutional, Snowden is suddenly NOT a traiter anymore?

Another thing - constantly mentioning "security" as a reason for surveilling an entire state just proves how much americans think with their fear, instead of their brain. Not a lot of other countries have this problem.

Lastly, by definition, U.s. is now a fascist state.

1.Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia

Check.

2.Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need.

Check

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists.

Check.

4.Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Check.

5.Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

Check.

6. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Check

7. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite

Check.

8. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Check

The reason Snowden is hunted down is because he embarrassed the u.s. government. Not because he is a traitor, not because he aided Enemy(whoever that may be).

Stop watching the tv and absorbing the propaganda you're fed, and you'll realize much more.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

What freedoms are being protected exactly? The freedom from government intrusion in your private life? The freedom to travel? The freedom to bear arms and defend yourself? The freedom to grow whichever plant you wish in your own land? The freedom to do with your own body as you please, provided you do not harm anyone else? The freedom from excessive labour? The freedom to run a currency like Bitcoin? The freedom from…

The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list. There are trade-offs to make between freedom and security, and neither the freedoms nor the security are absolute, and they never have been.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#226
post #103

"Is Snowden a hero or a traitor? Stay tuned if you can only hold one simplistic juvenile idea in your head at a time." https://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/344202042019045377

I don't know in what twisted stretch of the imagination someone can consider Snowden a traitor, unless he is blatantly lying. He didn't reveal anything that would be bad enough to actually harm anyone's life. And if he's telling us the truth, he did nothing less than a public service service, putting his own life at risk.

It could be that Eric Snowden is really just a cynical bastard who was trying to get away from his family and defect to China, bargaining with the rest of the secrets he knows to live a comfortable life.

Releasing the information to the public might be just to make up for it by doing something he thinks is the right thing to do. It would also distract everyone from the truth. If they never hear from him again, they may assume he got killed or imprisoned, and this makes him look like a martyr. This alternate story will keep his family from feeling the shame of being related to a defector.

And, maybe at the same time he wanted to say a big fuck you to his former employer, the US government.

It may seem far fetched, but with the information he has, he probably knows what happens to people who defected to China, and could evaluate whether it was a good idea or bad.

I guess we'll see if any ever hears from him again. If not, it fits right into this idea.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#227
post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

Dear U.S. Navy, Where are your nuclear subs and what are their missions? Sincerely, Definitely a U.S. citizen

Avoiding the overuse of classification doesn't automatically mean creating a live feed of all troop motion. You're using a strawman argument here, I think.

Knowing the location of the troops months or years ago isn't likely to cause much harm: A competent enemy can probably know all that anyway, if they care to.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be slightly careful with your analogies between the US and Nazi Germany, too.

Before Nazi Germany it was just Germany. Unless one is racist against Germans, one must in the interest of humanity seek to understand exactly how that transition happened.

> one must in the interest of humanity seek to understand exactly how that transition happened.

I suspect Martin-Niemöller had some insight into how this happened:

First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What astounds me is that the mainstream media is not similarly in uproar. People don't seem to understand what this means: the government is spying on us, it is lying about the spying, and now it is telling us to not worry about it, to just move along, AND WE'RE DOING IT. This is the most alarming thing I've seen in my adult life.

The government isn't really spying on us en masse, any more than terrorists are out to get us en masse. for one thing, people are more concerned with external threats than internal ones (and I think that's reasonably rational, because the US is really a very long way from anything resembling totalitarianism); for another, most people assume taht the government already has/had access to what you do on your cellphone/f…

>The government isn't really spying on us en masse

Actually they are.

>most people assume taht the government already has/had access to what you do on your cellphone/facebook/internet searches

I think that most people assume that email is just like mail: private, and protected by the 4th amendment. I think most people assume that their phone records are similarly protected. And I doubt that most people, possibly including people in Congress, know what is possible to infer from the data they are collecting.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an absurd number of things that it makes sense for the government to keep from the public and not divesting that information but keeping the people who have that information accountable is what elections are for. You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? The home phone numbers and addresses of all publ…

This is surprisingly easy to fix. What you have to do is 1. Any agency can designate a document as classified, a designation which remains in play for four years. This dovetails nicely with the election cycle. Also, the majority of police, etc. undercover operations are shorter than this period. Above this you are in "major case" / RICO / terrorism / etc. territory. 2. Extending the classification beyond four years r…

I would add to that, any company bidding for government contracts has to accept that all bids in that tender process, including the winning bid, are to be made public after the tender process is complete.

Here in Australia too many governments agencies spend tax payer’s money, issuing big contracts to private companies and the all the contract details remain secret.

One example was a company awarded the right to build a cross city tunnel toll way. The contract included a $100 million payout to a government body in exchange for massive road closures designed to divert traffic into the (toll paying) tunnel.

All the road closures did was create traffic chaos and the secret collusion was only revealed when the tunnel company went broke.

Post reply on HN