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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, when some large military power cuts off shipping lanes in the Pacific, we'd, what, threaten to nuke them? That's a better state affairs than what we have today? Conversely: what goes does a standing army of 1,127,801 people do you if your adversary has nuclear weapons?

I'm not a military strategist, and I know this isn't really an area where logic wins, but I like thinking of these scenarios at a top level anyway. OK. Assume China cuts off shipping lanes in the Pacific. They position their naval fleets in some aggressive formation over major lines (likely blockading Taiwan or something). Assumedly, they have to sink a ship or at least fire shots and take one captive. The U.S. and J…

> The conflict is either small, likely involving only SEALs, drone/tactical strikes, or another group of special forces, or full scale, involving (initially) a Pacific strike group fleet. The only logical progression of a full scale military conflict between two nuclear powers is nuclear warfare ...

It's not quite as black-and-white as that, as illustrated by the history of the second half of the 20th century: The U.S. and USSR engaged in several proxy wars (Vietnam, Afghanistan, arguably Central America), but never came close to nuclear war.

(Neither the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis nor the 1983 Able Archer scare involved a war, and the Korean War of 1950-53 was apparently started on Kim Il Sung's own initiative to the surprise of the USSR, although there have been reports that Russian pilots flew North Korean MIGs in air-to-air combat with U.S. planes; when China came into the war in November 1950 it wasn't yet a nuclear power.)

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, when some large military power cuts off shipping lanes in the Pacific, we'd, what, threaten to nuke them? That's a better state affairs than what we have today? Conversely: what goes does a standing army of 1,127,801 people do you if your adversary has nuclear weapons?

I'm not a military strategist, and I know this isn't really an area where logic wins, but I like thinking of these scenarios at a top level anyway. OK. Assume China cuts off shipping lanes in the Pacific. They position their naval fleets in some aggressive formation over major lines (likely blockading Taiwan or something). Assumedly, they have to sink a ship or at least fire shots and take one captive. The U.S. and J…

[deleted]

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#313
post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

Hmm, according to all kinds of measurements, indexes, etc. the most democratic, free, hight standard of living countries reside in northern Europe. Most of them don't have much military. So somehow this comment is pretty flawed.

The US once was the most free countries and indeed helped and inspired others, but that was more than a hundred years ago. The problem is while other countries emerged (possibly because of mistakes, losing wars, being split, reunited, etc.) the US has had a few problems that got them stuck.

I think and it's just my opinionated explanation. I might be completely wrong, but I think the biggest problem for the US where the two world wars and the cold wars. Basically it made the country/government learn that espionage, military, etc. is a good thing, because they only win. They win no just like the war itself, but they win control of people, they pretty much unite them, but even that is not all. The military system allows the US to do what other countries do with welfare. They reinvest tax money, the out it into families of veterans, have a huge military industry from weapons to mercenaries. It works. Just like it allows them to do heavy espionage in the name of national security.

On the other hand there is expensive education or bought education (VISA policies), not the best health care system, still a lot of weird stuff, like death penalty (an example of how the US is stuck), bad infrastructure (streets, internet, etc.) and a lot less liberties or equal treatment of sexes and "races" for example.

This is something that stabilizes the US. I don't know, in a way it is a valid thing. Stability is good and there is pretty much no country that does so well that it should judge the US for that.

Another problem is that they tend to do overpropaganda, so they can't really change. They had stuff like the cold war, so communists (Russians/Chinese) people are super evil. Also there were no other reforms. The two party system where both have pretty much opinion. That's no way of choosing. For example the death penalty thing I mentioned. Republicans are pro, Obama is pro. So no movement in sight.

The US is also stuck in nationalism. Like really, do you know any other developed country that is so much into flag waving and where everyone is like "Mall of America, Bank of America, X of America"?

Like I said. It's not bad. It brings stability, which is something people want, but it also means that progress simply stalls.

In this regard the US is actually quite the same as China or Russia. Big countries, which pretty much always the same government, lots of propaganda, lots of nationalism "the others are all bad (or envious)", death penalty, secrecy, lots of military investment, our country is the best, etc.

It might also be a thing of size. There have been political-philosophical works about this, partially with practical implementation (The Breakdown of Nations).

However, as history tells us (see various empires) these things break down in bad ways. Sadly it usually means the next nation will become like this and won't be any better at all. And yeah, I am not a friend of nations and stuff, but I am realist enough to know, no matter how long the US remains like that (yeah, I think it is trembling, but I think it's far from falling) or whatever, this isn't going to change. I also don't think there can be any kind of utopia. It would be really cool if people just abandoned stuff, but no matter how wrong communists are. There is one thing they got correctly (but usually still don't live after, else they wouldn't be communists): It might be nice for a while, when everyone understands how shitty things were and how nice it is to just live together, but people forget that and then it really starts from the beginning.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#314
post #305
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since where Security is a precondition to Freedom ? If you have zero physical security, that means that anyone can come up and just knock you down and take your things, your woman, whatever... Not my idea of "freedom". I think that it follows that you do need some security in order to live a free life. Does that justify secret government spying programs? Probably not! People here seem to have awfully black and whit…

"If you have zero physical security, that means that anyone can come up and just knock you down and take your things, your woman, whatever... Not my idea of "freedom"." But that happens now. All the examples that are being given on why we need security are examples of things that are happening now WITH security. "I think that it follows that you do need some security in order to live a free life. Does that justify se…

> But that happens now.

Obviously. It's impossible to eliminate bad things completely. They would happen more without anyone providing security.

> They haven't gained anything

Ok, fine, whatever, the world is moving only in one direction, with no nuance, no complexities, and in a very simple, easy to understand way. Nothing has gotten better for anyone.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#315
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list. There are trade-offs to make between freedom and security, and neither the freedoms nor the security are absolute, and they never have been.

You're doubly wrong. Security is not a precondition of freedom, and security does not have to come at a loss of freedom.

Hobbes had said that humans give up some of their rights to be protected by the government. That's what the western philosophy is built on. You may try to deny it but needing security is already a loss of freedom.

Examples of peaceful countries like sweden or switzerland can be given, but what did they do to stop hitler? Poland started to crack the enigma code and later turing with his friends in secrecy completed it in England.

What we need is people that can be trusted to be in power. The voting system in America is just plain wrong. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2z9lV3W1g

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#317
post #273
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two countries that have never used nuclear weapons against their enemies.

On the other hand, they've both killed tens of millions of their own citizens. Each. And the U.S. killed more people using conventional ordnance in a single night in Tokyo than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined from the atomic bombings, so what is it that you're actually upset about? Because it's obviously not the number of Japanese killed.

I wasn't commenting on total number of people killed by each government. We were talking about nuclear weapons (specifically nuclear subs).

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you've looked back at history? People's freedoms are typically limited by elites in their own country, not by foreign enemies.

the two are not mutually exclusive. Consider the a the number of former colonial powers is small compared to the number of former colonies.

The only difference between a normal government and a colonial government is the degree of integration. If you live under any government you are ruled, not free. The countries we have now grew by conquering and accumulating territory -- that is except in the cases where territories decided to give up their independence like the states in the US.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What freedoms are being protected exactly? The freedom from government intrusion in your private life? The freedom to travel? The freedom to bear arms and defend yourself? The freedom to grow whichever plant you wish in your own land? The freedom to do with your own body as you please, provided you do not harm anyone else? The freedom from excessive labour? The freedom to run a currency like Bitcoin? The freedom from…

The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list. There are trade-offs to make between freedom and security, and neither the freedoms nor the security are absolute, and they never have been.

>The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list.

the position you state was formed by Greek and Roman civilizations. Majority of people in these civilizations were slaves. And security was a precondition for the freedom of few at the top of these ancient societies.

The American revolution was a break in that order of things. It resulted in granting of unheard of freedoms while dismantling a lot of Imperial Britain security. And now we're sliding back to imperial level of security and freedom.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#320
Traitor or patriot is not defined by the current crowd in office, or by whether you support the current questionable policies.

A patriot is someone who consistently defends the constitution, which every one of those clowns took an oath to do.

L'État n'est pas eux.

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