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Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#151

Post by dylangs1030 »

grey-area wrote: post #149
toyg wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the short term, maybe. But in the long term, it was a catalyst that forced reforms (and further upheavals) across the whole continent; it was a large stick to carry at each negotiating table for freedoms, human rights and so on. In the same way, the Russian Revolution eventually generated Stalinism and brought suffering to the Soviet block, but it was a tremendous inspiration (and often brought material help) to w…

I'd recommend reading Fatal Purity if you want to understand just how evil the French Revolution really was - even the architects became its victims in huge numbers. The terror is not something I would wish on any country, and it is no way comparable to the American revolution in scope or brutality, that and the Russian revolution are fascinating periods but great examples of why revolution often ends in disaster for…

Thanks for the info.

You might want to also check out The Anatomy of Revolution - it details the broad life cycles revolutions succeed through. It concludes that revolutions are overall detrimental to lasting change in a society. The American Revolution is discussed in order to explain why it turned out atypically.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#152

Post by whatusername »

btilly wrote: post #147
baby wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That brought Democracy. Which is closer to what people wanted at that time : A country ruled by the people. Let's not forget that it brought us something even more beautiful : The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_Ma...

It also brought us Napoleon. And dictatorship. The guillotine. Many wars. More executions. The identification of the political right vs the political left. And on, and on, and on. The world was certainly changed. Not always for the better.

I'm sure there are some exceptions -- but most advances in the world can often be advances for both "good" and "evil". Or to put it another way - political or technological change doesn't overcome human nature

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#153

Post by joelthelion »

To everyone saying the petition is useless:

It's a good start. If enough people sign, it will force the administration to answer the petition. Even if it doesn't push the administration to give a positive answer, it can help fuel more protests and actions.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#154

Post by toyg »

grey-area wrote: post #149
toyg wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the short term, maybe. But in the long term, it was a catalyst that forced reforms (and further upheavals) across the whole continent; it was a large stick to carry at each negotiating table for freedoms, human rights and so on. In the same way, the Russian Revolution eventually generated Stalinism and brought suffering to the Soviet block, but it was a tremendous inspiration (and often brought material help) to w…

I'd recommend reading Fatal Purity if you want to understand just how evil the French Revolution really was - even the architects became its victims in huge numbers. The terror is not something I would wish on any country, and it is no way comparable to the American revolution in scope or brutality, that and the Russian revolution are fascinating periods but great examples of why revolution often ends in disaster for…

European socialism owes more to the threat of Stalinism than we like to admit; western governments were forced into improving conditions for their working classes mostly by the threat of civil unrest, while leftist parties and unions benefited enormously from their soviet connections - both in motivational and economic terms. As soon as the USSR disappeared, now-unchecked European elites promptly started renegotiating workers rights, pushing salaries down in real terms pretty much across the whole of Europe; public services were dismantled and sold off, and welfare benefits were slashed. Leftist parties have lost most of their economic independence and are now captive to established interests, so their policies are all over the place. Of course there are other elements influencing this state of things, but the post-89 trend is quite clear and has a lot to do with the disappearance of an armed contingent of "reds" on the horizon, like it happened with the Space Race.

I know my history well enough, I'm not denying that revolts often (but not always) result in weak political structures which are prone to collapse in the short term; you only need to look at the current wave of Middle-Eastern "springs" for confirmation - from Tunisia to Egypt, in practical terms they're now worse-off than under their dictators. Still, they play a often necessary role in putting the fear of consequences in the heart of established elites who would otherwise refuse to change; places like Saudi Arabia are now grudgingly considering improving conditions of their women, for example.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#155

Post by btilly »

whatusername wrote: post #152
btilly wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also brought us Napoleon. And dictatorship. The guillotine. Many wars. More executions. The identification of the political right vs the political left. And on, and on, and on. The world was certainly changed. Not always for the better.

I'm sure there are some exceptions -- but most advances in the world can often be advances for both "good" and "evil". Or to put it another way - political or technological change doesn't overcome human nature

True. But the French Revolution went wrong at breakneck speed in a lot of ways. And France's history since has been rather tumultuous. (How many different forms of government have they officially had?)

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#156

Post by grey-area »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #151
grey-area wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd recommend reading Fatal Purity if you want to understand just how evil the French Revolution really was - even the architects became its victims in huge numbers. The terror is not something I would wish on any country, and it is no way comparable to the American revolution in scope or brutality, that and the Russian revolution are fascinating periods but great examples of why revolution often ends in disaster for…

Thanks for the info. You might want to also check out The Anatomy of Revolution - it details the broad life cycles revolutions succeed through. It concludes that revolutions are overall detrimental to lasting change in a society. The American Revolution is discussed in order to explain why it turned out atypically.

Thanks for the recommendation, looks interesting. My other favourite book in this area is To the Finland Station, of course the NSA knows that already as I bought it on Amazon :)

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#157

Post by codesuela »

Sven7 wrote: post #130
olefoo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more effective list of tactics (for the long term): 1. poison databases; feed bogus information to surveillance systems at all levels, do this as a matter of course, make it pop culture. 2. build darknets: for instance wifi nodes disconnected from the internet that multiple communities use as a dropbox and rendezvous point ( a linux box, a solar cell, some git magic (or UUCP/Usenet for the old school feel ), and yo…

Just curious, how old are you?

I think I know what point you are trying to make and I just have to say that it is very sad that passion and the belief that we can change something is associated with youthful naivete

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#158

Post by dm2 »

WildUtah wrote: post #36
jfoutz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, which law was it that you think they broke? I'd happily agree what the NSA did was just as wrong as, say, making it to easy to get mortgages. But the law and morality don't always agree.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause , supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

That is a strong argument but I'd like to play devils advocate for a second.

First, "unreasonable" is a key word. Is the copying of data without any noticeable inconvenience to the citizen considered unreasonable? Another key word would be "seized", is copying considered seizing? Seizing is legally defined as the removal of property, one might argue that no seizure was ever made during this wiretapping.

Second, the Bill of Rights was written over 200 years ago. During that time PHYSICAL searches and property seizures were the primary concern. Nobody could even fathom the concept of the Internet or the role it would play in today's society.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#159

Post by Jacqued »

anigbrowl wrote: post #76
baby wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolution in France in 1789. We don't learn history in school for nothing I hope.

And a few years later they made Napoleon an emperor and he went on a spree of military conquest across the whole of Europe. Great example.

It could be argued that the French Revolution effectively ended its cycle in 1870 with the Third Republic, after two more upheavals (1830, 1848), two emperors and a few less powerful kings. The country ended up a lot better than it was at the beginning, and grew tremendously on almost all counts.

Also, it was one of the most interesting periods for arts and litterature ever to occur. Great example indeed

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#160

Post by etha »

sneak wrote: post #150
olefoo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more effective list of tactics (for the long term): 1. poison databases; feed bogus information to surveillance systems at all levels, do this as a matter of course, make it pop culture. 2. build darknets: for instance wifi nodes disconnected from the internet that multiple communities use as a dropbox and rendezvous point ( a linux box, a solar cell, some git magic (or UUCP/Usenet for the old school feel ), and yo…

I suggest everyone get a copy of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and read it. It's a fun read, and is a really good basic outline for how to dismantle a tyrannical regime from the ground up.

How to dismantle a tyrannical regime if you have the support of an omnipresent computer system they trust with absolutely everything.
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