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Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#81

Post by spikels »

timr wrote: post #42
WildUtah wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause , supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

PRISM, as described, is a warrant-based program. But you're right...we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a proper angry mob.

I love all the doublespeak around this issue but "warrant-based" is a new one. I'm pretty sure that does NOT mean a warrant specifically naming each person whose information was collected. Or does it?

You need a lawyer to translate anything our leaders (biz, gov or other) say. It's all form with very little substance. If you thought you heard something definitive you almost certainly misunderstood.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#82

Post by enraged_camel »

csomar wrote: post #57
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? You know, Tunisia went on a relatively peaceful revolution and now we have less freedom and more problems/unemployment. It's even worse for countries where the revolution is violent. Having lived…

First you say this:

Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change?

Then you say this:

Want to make change? Educate people. nothing else.

Your teachers must have omitted teaching you about the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War protests. And those are only two examples where protesting and rioting actually made a huge difference.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#83

Post by anigbrowl »

WildUtah wrote: post #36
jfoutz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, which law was it that you think they broke? I'd happily agree what the NSA did was just as wrong as, say, making it to easy to get mortgages. But the law and morality don't always agree.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause , supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Looking at telephone records is not a search under teh 4th amendment. See Smith v. Maryland. It's the Supreme Court that makes these determinations, and quoting the constitution without regard to how the SC has interpreted only shows that you haven't read article III properly.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#84

Post by mpyne »

csomar wrote: post #57
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? You know, Tunisia went on a relatively peaceful revolution and now we have less freedom and more problems/unemployment. It's even worse for countries where the revolution is violent. Having lived…

As another example, the U.S. is actually on its second government, not its first.

After the American Revolution we setup a government under the "Articles of Confederation". To put it bluntly, this new government sucked and was useless.

A convention was held to suggest improvements for the Articles; they decided instead to do it over again and propose a government that could actually stand the test of time.

The framers of this new Constitution then had to convince the rest of the country to adopt this different form of government. In the process of this debate and feedback it was decided to further specify Amendments that became known as the Bill of Rights to satisfy some reluctant states.

All of this happened peacefully.

The United States of America peacefully transitioned to its second form of government on March 4, 1789.

It hasn't been all peaceful, all the time, after ratification, but it should be in my opinion. We've managed to achieve so much as a nation with non-violent resistance and protest, there's no reason not to do that here to push for transparency.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#85

Post by baby »

mpyne wrote: post #69
baby wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolution in France in 1789. We don't learn history in school for nothing I hope.

Wasn't that the one that introduced Robespierre and the Reign of Terror, and then later another despot? Sure, Napoleon was talented and introduced the civil code, but it was still another example of the guy with the biggest stick making the rules.

They were uneducated people who went through a system that only valued rich and well connected people. What did you expect?

Take lessons from the past, and APPLY them to your context.

I'm not saying that rioting and killing Obama is the solution. I'm saying that using the government's tools (petitioning) against them is ridiculous. You have to show people you're angry, you have to show your entire country you're angry and you want things to change, laws to change, the system to change. You have to take a real stand.

EDIT : As I mentioned in some other comment. The revolution brought us Democracy, which later spread across all Europe, and brought us the beautiful Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen which is used everywhere in the world as standards (not always respected though). I believe the revolution was the most beautiful part of France history. Napoleon was our anger which was still resonating years after the Monarchy. We're calm people now.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#86

Post by toyg »

mpyne wrote: post #69
baby wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolution in France in 1789. We don't learn history in school for nothing I hope.

Wasn't that the one that introduced Robespierre and the Reign of Terror, and then later another despot? Sure, Napoleon was talented and introduced the civil code, but it was still another example of the guy with the biggest stick making the rules.

In the short term, maybe. But in the long term, it was a catalyst that forced reforms (and further upheavals) across the whole continent; it was a large stick to carry at each negotiating table for freedoms, human rights and so on.

In the same way, the Russian Revolution eventually generated Stalinism and brought suffering to the Soviet block, but it was a tremendous inspiration (and often brought material help) to workers' rights movements in many other countries, de facto creating the "social Europe" we currently enjoy (or used to).

EDIT: it's also funny to see these comments on American websites. Hello, your country was built by an armed revolution that was as nationalistic in practice as it was universalistic in inspiration. As certain modern philosophers from the Five Boroughs used to say, "you gotta fight for your right to party" :)

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#87

Post by mpyne »

staunch wrote: post #62
timr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A warrant that says 'allow us to get all the data on everyone in the country, with no specific targets'." So far, no evidence has been produced to support your assertion. In fact, all evidence in the leaked documents, official statements, etc. suggest the exact opposite: warrants are served that allow investigators to make specific searches, with oversight processes to try to reduce the number of US citizens' data i…

Obama has publicly acknowledged that phone records are being collected en masse. In his own words: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/06/07/transcript-what-oba...

Collected but not "seized", and then not searched at all without a warrant? Those records?

On a side note it's fascinating how the government has taken the 'digital piracy' logic of "I didn't steal it, the guy I copied it from still has their copy!" and re-arranged that to apply to digital data on a person. I'm not sure whether to cringe or be impressed...

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#88

Post by tokenadult »

I'm still making my mind up about what I think about the activities of Edward Snowden. (I was just reading some of the press coverage about him, especially the extensive story about him in The Guardian.) And I am on record here on HN sharing information about mass popular movements to fight tyranny

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5840000

and commenting on cases I have personally observed and participated in of turning a country from dictatorship with a secret police including political assassins into a representative democracy with a free press, fair elections, and independent judiciary, and constitutionally protected civil liberties.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5844864

That said, I am also on record somewhere on HN expressing the general opinion that it is pointless for us to submit White House petitions here as new stories. That's not really on-topic for HN, and it's not clear to me (in light of my knowledge of what kind of protest movements have worked in the past to overcome dictatorships) that posting a White House petition here does any good in the real world. Your opinion may differ, but I offer the thought that we have better means

http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html

of tackling your concern about government data-gathering programs than posting White House petitions. If you like the petitions, share them in your social networks in which you see your friends, but discuss the real, powerful democracy hacker tools here.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#89

Post by logn »

timr wrote: post #58
mtgx wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A warrant that says "allow us to get all the data on everyone in the country, with no specific targets". That's not much of a warrant that respects the 4th amendment.

"A warrant that says 'allow us to get all the data on everyone in the country, with no specific targets'." So far, no evidence has been produced to support your assertion. In fact, all evidence in the leaked documents, official statements, etc. suggest the exact opposite: warrants are served that allow investigators to make specific searches, with oversight processes to try to reduce the number of US citizens' data i…

? Maybe I'm missing something, but you should re-read carefully http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-record... and see if you still think the same... by the way that news story was built on information leaked by Edward Snowden. So, in my opinion, that's why he's an American hero because he directly responded to people like you to provide real proof that, yeah, things are really bad right now, worse than almost everyone thought (except for us tinfoil hat types).

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#90

Post by mpyne »

baby wrote: post #85
mpyne wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't that the one that introduced Robespierre and the Reign of Terror, and then later another despot? Sure, Napoleon was talented and introduced the civil code, but it was still another example of the guy with the biggest stick making the rules.

They were uneducated people who went through a system that only valued rich and well connected people. What did you expect? Take lessons from the past, and APPLY them to your context. I'm not saying that rioting and killing Obama is the solution. I'm saying that using the government's tools (petitioning) against them is ridiculous. You have to show people you're angry, you have to show your entire country you're angr…

You can take a stand without violence.

You can take a stand without destruction.

Hell, ask Snowden if he would rather have organized online action to protest, or people in the street beating other people...

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