Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk • Hacker News Board

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#101

Post by tufyjggbfhry » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:17 PM UTC

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10

mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

Wow, I cannot believe your comments along with other comments claiming that it is so that Tesla got a loan. All that negative energy in your comments. You must be really angry or jealous ar Ellon Musk. Thankfully trash like you do not get to decide what the rest of us can do.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#102

Post by w_t_payne » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:18 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #77

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

This is a complicated topic where your simple notion of "fairness" doesn't quite apply. In any industry where there are powerful incumbents and extremely high startup capital costs, the startups often need to be given outside assistance (i.e. government subsidy in the form of a loan) to have a chance of competing with their innovations. This is not ideal, but it is a necessary evil. Furthermore, the incumbents had pl…

.. The problem is that the economic "moats" around the incumbents are largely due to state intervention and protectionist policies anyway. How much protection does Detroit get from Washington? A lot. So, you have a bizarre situation where the "solution" to market dysfunction caused by government protectionist policy is ... wait for it .... more government protectionist policy. My goodness, this sounds like your tax dollars are being spent wisely .... Not. And all this from a country that trumpets free-market idealism like the rest of the world doesn't already get it. And practice it. And do a darn sight better at it (than the North-East at least).

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#103

Post by fduran » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:19 PM UTC

zerohm wrote: post #97

rubinelli wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Officially, to make sure customers have a dealership close by where they can have their cars properly serviced without delays or long trips. In practice, to protect dealers with fat margins and terrible commercial practices.

I'm pretty sure licensed dealerships barely break even on new car sales. They make their money on maintenance and used car sales.

From what I remember from a few years ago (quotation needed or the loan part may have changed), they make a few hundred dollars on new cars, bigger margins on second hand cars and about 40-50% of their income from car loans.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#104

Post by justin66 » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:21 PM UTC

bob13579 wrote: post #85

justin66 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> s it a Governmet loan? I mean like Government taking money from the competent people who know what they are doing, and giving it to ucompetent, hey here you have money so you can compete with competent guys using their money! Your objection, when applied to the specifics, would seem to make Tesla "ucompetent" and folks like GM both competent and untainted by government support. This thinking has some problems.

Because we're subsidizing inefficient actors already, that makes it okay to subsidize other actors? Why subsidize any of the inefficiency at all? Tesla is certainly not curbing carbon emissions. More efficient combustible engines however are doing that, despite the lack of subsidies.

> Because we're subsidizing inefficient actors already, that makes it okay to subsidize other actors?

I didn't say that, but I would note that talking about established industries which do not benefit from government intervention in some way is a bit like the dumbed down problems we used to get in high-school physics, where we could just ignore things like friction or inertia when it was convenient.

In the real world, all our industries have a relationship with government. It's fair to say that you don't think a new entrant with a seemingly good idea should receive any subsidies like the DOE loans, but what you're really saying is that we won't level the playing field to neutralize the effect of subsidization of the existing players, and there will consequently be less competition.

> More efficient combustible engines however are doing that, despite the lack of subsidies.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The companies making those engines - American, German, Japanese, Korean, whatever - are subsidized and supported by their governments. The companies making the fuel are similarly entwined with government. It's not a comparison that should cause a libertarian-minded person to immediately want to pick on Tesla specifically, which is why this line of argument strikes me as so odd.

> Tesla is certainly not curbing carbon emissions.

Certainly. Yeah...

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#105

Post by hjhhbbhbbb » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:23 PM UTC

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10

mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

You are a loser, you know that right? Fu&&cking jealous loser. All that negative energy around you will keep you down forever.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#106

Post by bob13579 » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:23 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #77

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

This is a complicated topic where your simple notion of "fairness" doesn't quite apply. In any industry where there are powerful incumbents and extremely high startup capital costs, the startups often need to be given outside assistance (i.e. government subsidy in the form of a loan) to have a chance of competing with their innovations. This is not ideal, but it is a necessary evil. Furthermore, the incumbents had pl…

"What many of them did instead was to go bankrupt and ask for bailouts."

This is quite astonishing. A few large American car companies with large pension liabilities needed the subsidies (I would have let them failed and let more efficient car manufacturers take over their assets, personally). Every other large manufacturer didn't need subsidies.

"Furthermore, the incumbents had plenty of chance to innovate."

The combustible engine is more efficient than ever. We're getting many more miles per a gallon of gas than we ever had. The efficiency of the engine has done much, much, much more than electric vehicles to curb carbon emissions. Going forward, making the combustible engine and hybrids more efficient will do magnitudes more to curb carbon emissions than all-electric vehicles.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#107

Post by danesparza » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:24 PM UTC

qwanzi77 wrote: post #22

[deleted] wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

So you should only give $500M loans to rich, well-connected, billionaires, right? Wow. There were quite several car manufacturers similar to Tesla's size before their large taxpayer-subsidized loan who didn't get those loans. I guess you must be a well-connected billionaire to qualify. I guess that counts as "fair" nowadays.

Remember the word 'loan' designates a debt instrument. It needs to be paid back. If you don't have the capital to secure the loan (and pay it back), no -- you shouldn't get the money.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#108

Post by DEinspanjer » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:27 PM UTC

bob13579 wrote: post #66

Confusion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How exactly did Tesla earn an "A" up to that point? Business plan, business model, customer research, advances already made, further along, ... There are dozens of possible reasons to loan $500M to Tesla, but not to another company. There are dozens of possible reasons why you would loan $1000 to one friend, but not to another. Someone else wouldn't know those reasons, but if the friend complained about you being u…

So the government is now a venture capitalist or investment bank and should be encouraged to pick winners and losers now? It's quite funny that these Tesla Roadsters are being bought by rich Americans, and being subsidized by average Americans, and yet there seems to be no outrage from those purportedly upset about inequality. The average American isn't benefiting by enriching billionaires and millionaires with their…

So because the company cannot take $500m and instantly start turning out third generation EVs that have a price point that the average American can afford, we should just refuse to invest any money in driving toward that goal and just stay with the status quo of oil-dependant cars?

The end goal of the loan was not to make Elon richer or enable Tesla to sell a few thousand cars to "billionaires and millionaires". It was to support a company that had demonstrated a plan that looked reasonably viable for building up the EV tech to the point that it can become a mainstream replacement for ICEs. The incumbents have not shown as much interest or drive, and the initial attempts by them at delivering EVs have not seen the same level of adoption and excitement from the public. I believe that this lack is due to the less efficient manner they are going about it: trying to retrofit EV technology into the ICE world.

I am certainly not a millionaire. I am above the salary level of the average American. That meant that it was possible for me to save up and purchase a Model S. Based on my experience of owning it and my research of the company, I believe that this is the future and I believe that $500m loan was not simply a capital venture or investment but rather that it was very much a benefit to the average American because it will enable a third generation of EVs to enter the mainstream.

I believe the established companies see that plausible future also and are fighting as hard as they can with lobbying and lawsuits to prevent being overshadowed by it.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#109

Post by bob13579 » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:28 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #95

bob13579 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they know what they're doing, and they're not picking winners and losers, they're playing the same game every investor plays: trying to decide who is going to win or lose before it happens." The government should be in the venture capitalist business funding companies based on the recommendations of the board of People Who Know Things, now? "As for dealerships, the reason Tesla doesn't have to go through them is bec…

>Other smaller car manufacturers are having to go through dealerships, even with zero pre-existing relationships. Why should Tesla, which has a market cap that far exceeds those aforementioned manufacturers, get special rules? I don't believe you. Show me some evidence that they have to, and that they're not merely choosing to.

They have to. Franchise laws. Look it up. Here is MA's: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXV/...

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#110

Post by coldpie » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:31 PM UTC

bob13579 wrote: post #90

scythe wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla qualified. Their application was reviewed by a board of People Who Know Things. I know this because my aunt, a respected physicist, sat on such a board. They're not throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks; they know what they're doing, and they're not picking winners and losers, they're playing the same game every investor plays: trying to decide who is going to win or lose before it happens. Tesla got th…

"they know what they're doing, and they're not picking winners and losers, they're playing the same game every investor plays: trying to decide who is going to win or lose before it happens." The government should be in the venture capitalist business funding companies based on the recommendations of the board of People Who Know Things, now? "As for dealerships, the reason Tesla doesn't have to go through them is bec…

> The government should be in the venture capitalist business funding companies based on the recommendations of the board of People Who Know Things, now?

Sure. Why not? I want the government to stimulate innovations in places that need it.