What is Happening in Istanbul? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#461

Post by waps » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 11:03 AM UTC

berkay wrote: post #341

JDShu wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the purposes of this discussion, I don't think it's correct to be comparing the current Singapore with the current Turkey, since the premise is that Turkey is on the way to becoming like Singapore. So from this perspective if you examine the points you gave: - Singapore is the least corrupt country in the world because of extremely tough laws that were enacted in the past. - I'll give you that Singapore is much m…

"A quick lookup shows that Erdoğan has been in office for the longest time since the 60s (three terms). To me, fears of Turkey becoming a de facto one-party state seems justified, at least absent any other information." You're on to something. One of the underlying reasons of the protests is not only Erdoğan has been in the office for a long time, but also secular sections of the society has lost hope of change of go…

If you think the worst is a one-party state, you've not been following the news. The worst is that Erdogan completes his mission : turning turkey in a middle-eastern islamic dictatorship where women are beaten for walking on the street and every tiniest bit of culture dies, violently and with beheadings.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#462

Post by yardie » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 11:17 AM UTC

foobarian wrote: post #337

nairteashop wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends whether you think it is ok for the government: - to ban chewing gum - to publicly cane people (limited to "6 strokes" for women, how nice) - to enforce capital punishment (i.e. killing people for allegedly killing people) - to limit your rights to criticize your government - etc ...provided that it guarantees you good money. There is nothing inherently wrong with your point of view, and I have many friends…

I don't know, I wonder if something like public caning might be a more humane and more effective option than sentencing people to anal rape. (Which is de facto what often happens in the US).

Anal rape is not a defacto thing in US jails or prisons. Is it an epidemic? Almost certainly since the justice department has turned a blind eye to it and LEOs use the threat of it to coerce confessions in a few cases. But actual rape amongst nonviolent convicts is not higher (2-2.5%, according to Wikipedia [1]). You're more likely to be sexually assaulted, in general, just by being a woman.

No one is sentenced to anal rape in the US.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_State...

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#463

Post by bad_user » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #255

api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

Wow. I am speechless. As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's wher…

> Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption

I haven't lived in either, but I did live as a child under dictatorship until I was 7 years old and 1989 happened. My parents and grandparents have fresh memories of the dynamics at play in our country and did their best to explain them to me.

I do have a problem with the quoted statement.

It really depends on how you define corruption. If you define it as fraudulent behaviour by those in power, well, technically those in power do not need to behave fraudulently if they bend the law to support whatever they want to do. On paper, at some point Romania was amongst the least corrupted countries in the world. In practice, our society was rotten at its core.

Ending corruption is not the end goal in itself, corruption being a symptom of other problems in society, like the ability to live free, free to build a business, free to own stuff, free to put food on the table, free to have your own voice and your own opinions and beliefs, free to be happy. Not having corruption can either mean that the problems have been solved, or that those in power forwarded whatever agenda they wanted while crushing all opposition. This is especially doable if the country is doing well economically, such that its citizens do not have to worry about putting food on the table, or providing quality health-care to their family or whatever basic needs humans have. The true test that a form of government faces in regards to corruption is not when things are going well economically, but rather when things go awry and one thing to keep in mind is that corruption also goes bottom-up, starting with normal people closing their eyes at fraudulent behaviour of which they themselves are guilty of.

Also, I do have Turkish friends and I have visited Istanbul twice and judging by their own stories of Istanbul, by how the city evolved during my visits and by how dynamic it is, Istanbul is in my top 10 cities I'd want to live in, while Singapore is not.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#464

Post by afsina » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 12:55 PM UTC

waps wrote: post #461

berkay wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A quick lookup shows that Erdoğan has been in office for the longest time since the 60s (three terms). To me, fears of Turkey becoming a de facto one-party state seems justified, at least absent any other information." You're on to something. One of the underlying reasons of the protests is not only Erdoğan has been in the office for a long time, but also secular sections of the society has lost hope of change of go…

If you think the worst is a one-party state, you've not been following the news. The worst is that Erdogan completes his mission : turning turkey in a middle-eastern islamic dictatorship where women are beaten for walking on the street and every tiniest bit of culture dies, violently and with beheadings.

You are joking right? Tell me one thing you could do 5,10,20 years ago and cannot do now that supports your future predictions. I am excluding drinking booze in public places.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#465

Post by flyinRyan » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 1:08 PM UTC

venus wrote: post #235

JDShu wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand your criticism here. The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success, but it doesn't take an especially libertarian mindset to decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over…

> a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. > decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over wealth Long term, if political freedom doesn't…

This line of thinking leads to things like the Nazi youth. No, having freedom doesn't lead to a better society, it prevents dangerous extremism. So far, history seems to indicate that dangerous extremism is more problematic than being overly mediocre.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#466

Post by flyinRyan » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 1:11 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #309

jackowayed wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Long term, if political freedom doesn't bring wealth, then what is the bloody point? Seriously? You think that everything a government should strive to guarantee is a means where the end is wealth? You don't think that equality, freedom to criticize questionable government practices (even those that improve GDP), or anything else should be a goal in itself?

I think you probably went through the US education system? US schools brainwash kids into thinking that democracy and freedom to criticize the government are inherently good concepts, but in reality they are only desirable because of the practical effects it may or may not produce. There are no universal morals, and because of that you can't say democracy is inherently "right." So I have to side with your parent and…

So you think freedom to criticize the government isn't really needed? It would be cool if the government could simply murder anyone they wanted and no one could say anything? I can't believe I'm reading this on HN.

And no I don't believe democracy is fundamentally "right", I believe it is the safest option we currently have because the people who want to be in control are often dangerous. How dangerous they can be is dependent on how much power they have. Show me anywhere in the history of the world where not having the right to criticize the government turned out well in the long term.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#467

Post by flyinRyan » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 1:13 PM UTC

venus wrote: post #401

jackowayed wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the comment I replied to basically posited "wealth" as the one and only universal good by suggesting that if the government strives for something that doesn't eventually yield wealth, there's no point. An overused example: Fascism has at times lead to incredible economic growth, creating wealth that did measurable good in most citizen's lives (by ending terrible depressions). But there was more that came along wi…

I used the word wealth because I was replying to another post which used it when trying to set up a false dichotomy between political freedom on one side and "wealth" on the other, as if they're opposites and you can have one or the other, not both. I wasn't trying to say that the sole goal of government is to get everyone rich. But I did say long term - long term the Nazi "wealth" turned to ash. For that matter the…

> long term the Nazi "wealth" turned to ash.

Mercedes is still doing quite well, actually. Germany is the exporting powerhouse of Europe.

But just to be clear, you would be ok with the whole holocaust thing if Germany now had the GDP (or whatever metric you want to use for "social wealth") of the US as a result?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#468

Post by ctdonath » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 1:29 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #56

ctdonath wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's confusing is: in the USA, the term "occupy" has been taken as a practical trademark for a series of organized political protests. Look up "Occupy Wall Street" as the first and primary instance.

Hard to ignore the stereotype of the American who knows little of what happens beyond their borders :( The Occupy Movement was a global one, with protests in over 80 countries. It started there, but it wasn't just a Wall St. thing.

'scuze me for not keeping up on the happenings in each of ~200 countries, and assuming not everyone everywhere is keeping up on the latest in my sphere of awareness.

Yes, Occupy was global. I don't know who from where knows how much about it. I was answering a question about why someone might be confused by usage of the term "occupy" when it was unclear whether it was an "Occupy"-brand event vs "hey let's go occupy this space to save it". I referenced the Wall St. thing precisely because that's where Occupy started.

Besides, http://xkcd.com/1053/

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#469

Post by afsina » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 1:30 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #354

mda wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read, listened hundreds of things about events, but honestly, all I see is vague hand wavy things about the real cause. "Lack of adequate response.. No official plans to celebrate May 19.. No alcohol sale after 10pm.." Seriously? I maen really?, To me this this whole mess seems to be reduced to "Hey police pepper sprayed my friend yesterday, and btw I also hate this government and PM. I am going in." reaction.

Many Turkish people interpret these as important signs, there are many more, which, when listed in isolation sound small (e.g. ban on red lipstick for Turkish Airlines female flight attendants), but when taken together and in the context of Erdogan's no-reconciliation-no-matter-what tone are quite alarming. As for the "police sprayed my friend yesterday", it wasn't just that, the level of brutality was amazing.

So pink lipstick is allowed? Please. Those things are better explained with Hanlon's Razor rather than a sinister grand scheme set by evil government.

After the initial protests, indeed it really boils down to an unrest against police brutality in first days. I cannot see any compelling reason other than that. And now they are just protesting for sake of protesting (sadly with vandalism and aggression).

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#470

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

nairteashop wrote: post #300

jasonlingx wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously trying to say you can get caned for littering in Singapore? It is exactly this kind of ignorant statement spoken as if it were fact that irks me.

Are you saying that singapore doesn't cane people, or that it doesn't cane people for littering? Maybe you are right about the latter (I can only find evidence that you will be arrested, perhaps not caned, for littering) but caning is most certainly a thing in Singapore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Legal_basis http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1017.html If caning its own citizens i…

>If caning its own citizens is not evidence of a nanny state that treats people like children, I don't know what is. //

Surely the issue - assuming active littering is punished by caning and in this narrow area - is that any adult in such a place would never come up against the consequences of the law.

It's not treating mature people like children it's treating antisocial adults as immoral.