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What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#241

Post by fianchetto »

blhack wrote: post #176
bconway wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see stories like this, I'm always impressed at the wide availability of gas masks. Are we even allowed to own those in the States?* *Yes, I know how sad of a question that is.

Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States... Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.

> Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.

I must disagree. Any government that would prohibit free agriculture is already on the road to tyranny. Every dictatorship, no matter its form, allows for the existence of some personal liberties as it limits the rest.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#243

Post by Perceval »

kposehn wrote: post #166

What is currently going on in Turkey is the Islamist ruling party pushing hard to make the country much more conservative instead of secular, all the while pushing their way back into the Arab world to regain their clout and power. The youths are protesting because what was once a fairly liberal set of standards is rapidly being removed. Ironically, it was the military that protected this set of freedoms.

There's nothing ironic about that. The military in Turkey have styled themselves the defenders of Ataturk's constitution, which enshrined certain "Kemalist" values like secularism, republicanism, and populism. They've engaged in military coups several times in the history of Turkey in order to (ostensibly) protect the constitution. In the past they've removed any leader that was deemed too politically religious.

Erdogan's big accomplishment was to be moderate enough in his political Islamism that he didn't trigger a military coup. Further, the European Union disapproved of Turkey's history of military coups, making it clear that they weren't going to admit a country that relied on military coups to defend its constitution from democracy. So the military did not remove Erdogan, despite the AKP's moderate Islamic agenda.

The military is a conservative force in Turkish society insofar as it defends an interpretation of the constitution and politics rooted in Ataturk's ideology from the 1920s. But it is not a conservative force in the socially conservative political Islam sense. You should not be surprised that secular urban youth and the Turkish military end up on the same side.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#244

Post by yekko »

mathieuh wrote: post #179

The police are basically treating this like war. Remember this the next time someone says we should treat the police with respect because they're 'just doing their job'. It's not a stick with a worker at both ends, it a stick with a worker at one end and the state at the other.

It's becoming a civil war.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#245

Post by jasonlingx »

geuis wrote: post #239
jasonlingx wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading it 10 more times won't change anything. Yes English is my first language (so what?). I understand perfectly the words but the attempts to draw parallels with Singapore makes absolutely no sense.

Go to Singapore. Litter. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CRiqfOMVC74/T69l6BH1vVI/AAAAAAAAL8... What bubble are you living in because it desperately needs to be popped.

Are you seriously trying to say you can get caned for littering in Singapore? It is exactly this kind of ignorant statement spoken as if it were fact that irks me.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#246

Post by jackowayed »

venus wrote: post #235
JDShu wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand your criticism here. The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success, but it doesn't take an especially libertarian mindset to decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over…

> a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. > decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over wealth Long term, if political freedom doesn't…

> Long term, if political freedom doesn't bring wealth, then what is the bloody point?

Seriously? You think that everything a government should strive to guarantee is a means where the end is wealth? You don't think that equality, freedom to criticize questionable government practices (even those that improve GDP), or anything else should be a goal in itself?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#247

Post by wnight »

saejox wrote: post #37

Many local shops are looted by the protestors. Cars turned, stones thrown etc... So much for peaceful a protest. Mayoral election is less than a year away. Protest with your votes, not your fists.

Even in Canadian protests the police have been caught sneaking in trouble-makers with rocks and black ski-masks. If they didn't create the panic they wouldn't get paid for solving it.

Considering that the Turkish government is trying to make the protestors look bad so they have justification for going overboard in their earlier treatment of them, it's more likely that plain-clothes police officers looted those stores and overturned the cars.

When something violent and destructive happens, look at who did the last such thing.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#248

Post by justin66 »

api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

> It's the fusion of authoritarian quasi-fascist rule with capitalism

Were the two ever separate?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#249

Post by damoncali »

jasonlingx wrote: post #237
JDShu wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand your criticism here. The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success, but it doesn't take an especially libertarian mindset to decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over…

> The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. This is not true. His exact words were "I find Singapore to be the scariest dystopia in the world today". > Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success This is bullshit. What a sweeping generalisation to…

What are these "less freedoms" exactly?

You know, free elections, the right to arm yourself, the right to buy chewing gum.

Singapore is pretty creepy under the surface and reeks of covert oppression, at least to my American eye. It seems to work for them, but I wouldn't want to live in a place like that, clean streets or not.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#250

Post by rdtsc »

jasonlingx wrote: post #230
rdtsc wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read his comment? Read it again. You can certainly disagree with his point but when you ask "what does it have to do with Singapore?" you are showing that you either haven't read it or English is not your first language (it isn't for me) and you just couldn't understand it (not worries then, I know how that feels some times).

Reading it 10 more times won't change anything. Yes English is my first language (so what?). I understand perfectly the words but the attempts to draw parallels with Singapore makes absolutely no sense.

> I understand perfectly the words but the attempts to draw parallels with Singapore makes absolutely no sense.

That may be the case but the fact that he was making an analogy between the way governments and private industry are setup, the mix of conservative ideology and lack of some of the freedoms was obvious. Again, whether you agree with that, is another issue, but your phrased you answer as if you didn't understand that he was making a comparison.

Basically it seemed you were skimming through comments about Turkey saw a comment on Singapore and just replied "what is this doing here, we are talking about Turkey".

It is also interesting that the gp post indicated clearly what he thought it has to do with Singapore if you want to continue the argument you can perhaps provide counter-arguments to their point, instead of insinuating that they got lost and thought we were discussing an article about libertarian city states or something.

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