What is Happening in Istanbul? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#431

Post by saurabhnanda » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:26 AM UTC

code51 wrote: post #359

saurabhnanda wrote: post #180

Why don't people identify the policemen and make their social life (outside of their police duty) a living hell. Bully their kids in school, boycott their spouses, refuse to do any kind of business with them (no groceries, no milk, etc.) At some point people have to be held personally responsible for their wrong doings. They shouldn't be absolved of personal responsibility just because they're in the police force, wh…

Did their children do any wrong? Since when did you start to punish other people instead? You'll also want to "mark their houses" at some point... Please think before you write such things. That's not outright hate speech but it sure leads to hateful actions.

The idea was not to advocate hate crime, but social boycott. The idea is to make people personally responsible for the organizations that they work for. Is there any other solution for this mess?

In the end it's people from within the society that join governmental organizations and inflict torture / injustice on rest of the society.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#432

Post by yen223 » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:43 AM UTC

jasonlingx wrote: post #399

aswanson wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, though. I mean, a ban on chewing gum, though? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore Right, I dont want to contemplate that.

In Minnesota, it is against the law to hang male and female underwear together on the same washing line. So what?

So both are ridiculous laws that have no place in modern society.

That said, I thought Singapore has repealed the chewing-gum ban already.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#433

Post by fakeer » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:43 AM UTC

mda wrote: post #314

enraged_camel wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I am speechless. As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's wher…

I partially disagree with your comment about corruption. This part:"Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government." Corruption on upper levels probably never disappears, but at least on the lower levels, where people really got hurt and dreaded most, things got better with current government. As someone who lived in Turkey for quite long time, I can say I was pleasantly surpri…

USA, the land of the free - land of no corruption - land of emancipator - land of liberating bombings - land of the powerful, ranks 9. Wow! Interesting map.

I really do not know what this map considered as corruption. A little explanation shall sure help!

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#434

Post by gcb0 » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:56 AM UTC

claudius wrote: post #274

gcb0 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I took that out of my #$% :-) But there is a documentary about it... fairly recent one, I just can't find it knowing only that it was a park in Germany.

Plebiscites in Germany are rather rare, and the only recent one I can think of is Stuttgart 21, where a train station was/is to be re-built. There was also only one plebiscite specifically about it, it was announced well in advance and it was won by those wanting to build the new station (which didn’t make the Green party that originally pressed for it particularly happy).

you are correct. again, i said "moved the date or something" i don't quite remember the details, but remember that the oposition was complaining about something sneak that the majority party did. it may be that they used the fact that the oposition was wasting all their money with a "say no to stuttgart 21" and on the day of the referendum they worded it as "cancel the ongoing effort?"... i'd have to watch the documentary again to remember details :)

but the idea is the same. even if you vote for your representatives for one reason or another, in the end, the party that ensure majority, gets to decide on the details.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#435

Post by gcb0 » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:56 AM UTC

claudius wrote: post #274

gcb0 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I took that out of my #$% :-) But there is a documentary about it... fairly recent one, I just can't find it knowing only that it was a park in Germany.

Plebiscites in Germany are rather rare, and the only recent one I can think of is Stuttgart 21, where a train station was/is to be re-built. There was also only one plebiscite specifically about it, it was announced well in advance and it was won by those wanting to build the new station (which didn’t make the Green party that originally pressed for it particularly happy).

you are correct. again, i said "moved the date or something" i don't quite remember the details, but remember that the oposition was complaining about something sneak that the majority party did. it may be that they used the fact that the oposition was wasting all their money with a "say no to stuttgart 21" and on the day of the referendum they worded it as "cancel the ongoing effort?"... i'd have to watch the documentary again to remember details :)

but the idea is the same. even if you vote for your representatives for one reason or another, in the end, the party that ensure majority, gets to decide on the details.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#436

Post by simonh » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 7:05 AM UTC

venus wrote: post #327

simonh wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. There is a problem with centralised political power, and that's that if a nastier, more corrupt and less tolerant clique gets hold of that power there is absolutely nothing that can st…

> There is a problem with centralised political power Well yes, of course. Even the laziest student of history knows that. I am not trying to advocate for that extreme end of the range of political possibilities. The elephant in the room, though, is that the other extreme - our hyper-egalitarianism; giving everyone, by birth, no matter how uninformed, no matter how disinterested, an unchallenged vote does not seem to…

>You say that there's a problem with centralised political power, and I agree wholeheartedly, but we certainly do have a problem because that centralised power is in every lounge room, car radio and news stand in the land. At least with communism you knew who was pulling the strings!

There is no centralised power controlling news media in the democratic developed world. I can walk out on to the street in the UK and buy publications supporting any political viewpoint with enough people interested in it to make selling such a publication viable. Hop on to the internet, and you can push whatever agenda you like, and I note that that's exactly what you and I are doing. The problem with totalitarianism is that if they decide they don't like what you're saying, you get censored. Those strings get pulled on you, immediately. See the censorship situation for social media in China for details. This conversation would be practically impossible.

If you really want to see an incumbent ruling class pulling no punches and using all the tools available to it to pull those strings as tight as possible, there are several nations out there doing that right now. My wife's family live in one.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#437

Post by LatvjuAvs » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 7:18 AM UTC

fakeer wrote: post #433

mda wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I partially disagree with your comment about corruption. This part:"Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government." Corruption on upper levels probably never disappears, but at least on the lower levels, where people really got hurt and dreaded most, things got better with current government. As someone who lived in Turkey for quite long time, I can say I was pleasantly surpri…

USA, the land of the free - land of no corruption - land of emancipator - land of liberating bombings - land of the powerful, ranks 9. Wow! Interesting map. I really do not know what this map considered as corruption. A little explanation shall sure help!

Legalize corruption and it goes off from ranks.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#438

Post by chrischen » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 7:31 AM UTC

oillio wrote: post #344

chrischen wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you probably went through the US education system? US schools brainwash kids into thinking that democracy and freedom to criticize the government are inherently good concepts, but in reality they are only desirable because of the practical effects it may or may not produce. There are no universal morals, and because of that you can't say democracy is inherently "right." So I have to side with your parent and…

Someone in this thread already quoted the US constitution, so I won't do it again. This is not just taught by the US school systems, this is the basis on which the United States was founded. It is taught in the school system because the populace of the US believe that there are in fact universal morals. We believe that it is self evident that one of these morals is our right (not privilege) to seek freedom to questio…

I never said his beliefs were wrong. In fact, believing in universal morals is the act of treating everyone with different morals as if they are wrong.

I simply argued to the parent post that is there is no such thing as universal morals, and our morals, ideals, goals are all framed around an end we want to achieve. And that end, whatever is, can be arbitrarily defined... so morals therefore are also arbitrarily defined. Believing in universal morals is stating that your morals are better than others because you believe in it. It's just like nationalism. You'll believe your country is better because you were born in it, just as you might believe your morals are better than others (universal) simply because you've been indoctrinated by them.

Just as your school isn't necessarily right when indoctrinating you with morals, your country's founding fathers may not be right either. It might have been right for the purposes of the country, but you really do have to see things from other perspectives.

I hope people reading this also take note of the subtle name calling oillio just committed (calling me a troll). If life were that simple we could just dismiss every opposing viewpoint as a troll, just as in minesweeper marking everything a flag... but it doesn't work that way.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#439

Post by chrischen » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 7:33 AM UTC

jackowayed wrote: post #343

chrischen wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you probably went through the US education system? US schools brainwash kids into thinking that democracy and freedom to criticize the government are inherently good concepts, but in reality they are only desirable because of the practical effects it may or may not produce. There are no universal morals, and because of that you can't say democracy is inherently "right." So I have to side with your parent and…

But the comment I replied to basically posited "wealth" as the one and only universal good by suggesting that if the government strives for something that doesn't eventually yield wealth, there's no point. An overused example: Fascism has at times lead to incredible economic growth, creating wealth that did measurable good in most citizen's lives (by ending terrible depressions). But there was more that came along wi…

I'm sure venus meant "wealth" as "well-being." GDP is one potential way to measure it... but it may or may not be flawed. We're just referring to "wealth" as a theoretical concept we can't perfectly measure.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#440

Post by Ihmahr » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 7:39 AM UTC

venus wrote: post #208

api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

> protesting something I call "Singaporification." I love how people always cast Singapore as some kind of horror story cautionary tale. No-one seems to have told the actual people of Singapore, who are perfectly free to leave their nightmarish dystopia at any time, and yet seem perversely inclined to stay. Somehow this obvious, central, crucial fact gets left out of the "we don't want to turn out like Singapore!" na…

"No-one seems to have told the actual people of Singapore, who are perfectly free to leave their nightmarish dystopia at any time, and yet seem perversely inclined to stay."

Many (native) singaporean are too poor to leave the country.