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What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#341

Post by berkay »

JDShu wrote: post #279
enraged_camel wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I am speechless. As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's wher…

For the purposes of this discussion, I don't think it's correct to be comparing the current Singapore with the current Turkey, since the premise is that Turkey is on the way to becoming like Singapore. So from this perspective if you examine the points you gave: - Singapore is the least corrupt country in the world because of extremely tough laws that were enacted in the past. - I'll give you that Singapore is much m…

"A quick lookup shows that Erdoğan has been in office for the longest time since the 60s (three terms). To me, fears of Turkey becoming a de facto one-party state seems justified, at least absent any other information." You're on to something. One of the underlying reasons of the protests is not only Erdoğan has been in the office for a long time, but also secular sections of the society has lost hope of change of government within the political system (Opposition is in shambles, AKP will likely win the elections again, etc.) There is no political alternative within the system, hence the growing discontent manifests itself in other ways.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#342

Post by ludwigvan »

Perceval wrote: post #243
kposehn wrote: post #166

What is currently going on in Turkey is the Islamist ruling party pushing hard to make the country much more conservative instead of secular, all the while pushing their way back into the Arab world to regain their clout and power. The youths are protesting because what was once a fairly liberal set of standards is rapidly being removed. Ironically, it was the military that protected this set of freedoms.

There's nothing ironic about that. The military in Turkey have styled themselves the defenders of Ataturk's constitution, which enshrined certain "Kemalist" values like secularism, republicanism, and populism. They've engaged in military coups several times in the history of Turkey in order to (ostensibly) protect the constitution. In the past they've removed any leader that was deemed too politically religious. Erdo…

Good stuff. Though, it is better to say military used to be like that, as currently, all the generals including the leading general 3 years ago have been jailed, so indeed military is very powerless now. It is not only that AKP did not trigger the coup, it is that they learned from the mistakes of their political ancestors, and this time, crushed the military before moving on to their real Islamist plans.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#343

Post by jackowayed »

chrischen wrote: post #309
jackowayed wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Long term, if political freedom doesn't bring wealth, then what is the bloody point? Seriously? You think that everything a government should strive to guarantee is a means where the end is wealth? You don't think that equality, freedom to criticize questionable government practices (even those that improve GDP), or anything else should be a goal in itself?

I think you probably went through the US education system? US schools brainwash kids into thinking that democracy and freedom to criticize the government are inherently good concepts, but in reality they are only desirable because of the practical effects it may or may not produce. There are no universal morals, and because of that you can't say democracy is inherently "right." So I have to side with your parent and…

But the comment I replied to basically posited "wealth" as the one and only universal good by suggesting that if the government strives for something that doesn't eventually yield wealth, there's no point.

An overused example: Fascism has at times lead to incredible economic growth, creating wealth that did measurable good in most citizen's lives (by ending terrible depressions). But there was more that came along with that, which mostly wasn't cutting into the country's wealth (maybe it squanders some human capital, but so does 30% unemployment, which the Nazis completely reversed in around 5 years). Despite the positive implications of fascism on "wealth", there's a lot that the Nazis did that most would be inclined to call bad.

On the other hand, Scandanavian socialist democracy may not be optimal for wealth creation, but it has a lot of benefits that help people lead enjoyable lives that are free from the risk of various kinds of terrible suffering (eg. homelessness).

There are no universal goods, but when pushed, very few people are actually willing to eschew all goods except wealth. And if you are, what's so special about wealth that makes it a good you're willing to quasi-universalize?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#344

Post by oillio »

chrischen wrote: post #309
jackowayed wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Long term, if political freedom doesn't bring wealth, then what is the bloody point? Seriously? You think that everything a government should strive to guarantee is a means where the end is wealth? You don't think that equality, freedom to criticize questionable government practices (even those that improve GDP), or anything else should be a goal in itself?

I think you probably went through the US education system? US schools brainwash kids into thinking that democracy and freedom to criticize the government are inherently good concepts, but in reality they are only desirable because of the practical effects it may or may not produce. There are no universal morals, and because of that you can't say democracy is inherently "right." So I have to side with your parent and…

Someone in this thread already quoted the US constitution, so I won't do it again. This is not just taught by the US school systems, this is the basis on which the United States was founded. It is taught in the school system because the populace of the US believe that there are in fact universal morals. We believe that it is self evident that one of these morals is our right (not privilege) to seek freedom to question the government. It is in the first line of our mission statement.

To tell someone that their beliefs are wrong simply because of where they originated is rather arrogant. You have no idea the OP's background and how deeply they have questioned their own beliefs. It is perfectly fine to disagree with this opinion. However, you must argue against the actual opinion, dismissing it due to where or how it is taught provides nothing to the discussion.

P.S. - Sorry everyone for feeding the trolls.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#345

Post by spcs »

mc-lovin wrote: post #325
spcs wrote: post #285

This was a posted by a friend on Facebook: Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP. Turk…

Excuse my ignorance in the following, I am trying to understand the situation based on very little prior knowledge: What you say makes a lot of sense, but can you comment on how this generally "good" government seems to be using excessive force, and the claimed media blackout on the protests? I understand that the government may be more respectful of democracy than their opponents, but is it possible that the protest…

I merely copied my friend's post.

He said that police used excessive force and AKP government has admitted that days before and have said that the police officers who have done so will be investigated.

He says that there is no black out in Turkish media and you can check Turkish media yourself. There is no black out as some are claiming. Go to say CNN Turk or other Turkish media sites and use Google translate to see that there is no such thing. Turkish media is generally secular and anti-AKP.

Do they want more freedom or do they want to impose their will on the majority? That is the question. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_presidential_election,_...

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#346

Post by [deleted] »

Jun8 wrote: post #330

I've been following the events since the beginning (in fact I was there at the solitary meeting in Chicago yesterday: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-local-... ), so let me summarize what's been going on. However, if you have time to read just a single post, read this ( http://technosociology.org/?p=1255 ) spot on analysis instead of my comment. First, it's not an Istanbul thing anymore, many Tu…

[deleted]

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#347

Post by spcs »

ludwigvan wrote: post #338
mc-lovin wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse my ignorance in the following, I am trying to understand the situation based on very little prior knowledge: What you say makes a lot of sense, but can you comment on how this generally "good" government seems to be using excessive force, and the claimed media blackout on the protests? I understand that the government may be more respectful of democracy than their opponents, but is it possible that the protest…

Don't believe him. It is basically full of lies, albeit written with a very good English. AKP basically used EU as a cover to weaken other significant forces like legal bodies, media, military. Now, they are in phase 2, using their power to crush all others who do not live like them. For example, until late yesterday, there were no major TV channels airing the news. We communicated via Twitter, and the only live broa…

Which part is false? What fact are you objecting in his post? I think what he has written is easily verifiable so there is no need to trust him or me. As far as I have checked they are accurate.

As I understand, you have been protesting freely with the support from military, judiciary (it looks that recently Kemalist supreme court tried to close AKP while it had a majority in Turkish parliament and had just won another democratic election), and media for years and you still haven't been able to even stop the increase of AKP's popularity. Is that true? Is his claim that you are minority false?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#348

Post by scribu »

chrischen wrote: post #313
damoncali wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these "less freedoms" exactly? You know, free elections, the right to arm yourself, the right to buy chewing gum . Singapore is pretty creepy under the surface and reeks of covert oppression, at least to my American eye. It seems to work for them, but I wouldn't want to live in a place like that, clean streets or not.

Don't forget the right to kill people and the right to pollute the environment. Singapore doesn't allow those either.

So, are you suggesting

a) that in the USA you are _legally_ allowed to kill others and to pollute?

or

b) that no, the USA doesn't legally allow that, but in practice it does (any stats on how many guilty people got off the hook?)

or what?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#349

Post by ozgune »

api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

I don't know how the media is governed in Singapore, but the traditional media in Turkey didn't cover the protests at all. News about the protests (could only) spread through the internet, and today I'm proud to be a techie.

The Turkish Prime Minister expressing his concerns on news spreading, "There is now a menace which is called Twitter. The best examples of lies can be found there. To me, social media is the worst menace to society.”

http://goo.gl/MLTCL (Washington Post)

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#350

Post by mc-lovin »

ludwigvan wrote: post #338
mc-lovin wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse my ignorance in the following, I am trying to understand the situation based on very little prior knowledge: What you say makes a lot of sense, but can you comment on how this generally "good" government seems to be using excessive force, and the claimed media blackout on the protests? I understand that the government may be more respectful of democracy than their opponents, but is it possible that the protest…

Don't believe him. It is basically full of lies, albeit written with a very good English. AKP basically used EU as a cover to weaken other significant forces like legal bodies, media, military. Now, they are in phase 2, using their power to crush all others who do not live like them. For example, until late yesterday, there were no major TV channels airing the news. We communicated via Twitter, and the only live broa…

It seems that some of what you are saying is not that different to the claims I was replying to, but with a different interpretation.

E.g. you consider weakening the power of legal bodies, the media and the military to be bad, but from their point of view, these bodies were supporting an undemocratic power structure that favored the pro-secular minority.

On alcohol, there is not a blanket ban, but fairly strict restrictions (in particular limiting sales of alcohol from 6am to 10pm). And lifting the ban on head-scarfs seems like the lifting of excessive restrictions, not the imposition of Islamic ideas.

As to Erdogan's general ideas on the nature of democracy, can you be more specific?

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