What is Happening in Istanbul? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#351

Post by tome » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:29 PM UTC

nairteashop wrote: post #331

tome wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If caning its own citizens is not evidence of a nanny state that treats people like children, I don't know what is. Not that I want to sound like a supporter Singapore's judicial system but I didn't expect to hear this from a citizen of a country that is allowed to kill as a form of punishment. (Making the assumption that you are from the US, apologies if I got that wrong).

No, you got it right (I'm not american, but I live here). And I absolutely agree with you - like caning, capital punishment has no place in an enlightened country, and I sure hope it is eradicated from the US, and throughout the world, soon. I was merely disagreeing with the parent's assertion that Singapore has some form of enlightened government that doesn't trample on personal freedoms, and treats its citizens wit…

Fair enough.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#352

Post by spcs » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #306

spcs wrote: post #285

This was a posted by a friend on Facebook: Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP. Turk…

Where does the 70% came from? Do you have a source for this? It would be better to check how many "scarf-wearers" are going to universities, this percentage would be meaningful. My opinion is that universities should be religion-free as science doesn't play well with religion. I think that the problem might be that the (nonsecular) east wants to rule the (secular) west and viceversa.

Entering universities while wearing head-scarves was forbidden. You couldn't physically enter them wearing a head-scarf until very recently.

Is it the eastern part trying to impose its will on the western part or is it the eastern part trying to remove what western part imposed on them over decades?

Here are what I see people are claiming to be signs of AKP Islamizing Turkey: allowing women with headscarves attend universities, forbidding shops sell alcohol in late night hours (after 10PM).

In Ontario only government owned LCBO can sell liquor and its shops close at 6PM. The consumption of liquor in public places is forbidden completely in Canada. Surely Canada is not an Islamic state. Are we sure Turkey is a Muslim majority country?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_in_public#Canada

He says he doesn't remember a source but he has heard it several times that over 70% wears headscarf. I found this article by Google:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&#38...

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#353

Post by Cthulhu_ » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

bconway wrote: post #163

ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #118

CNN STORY (with images): http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/turkey-protests/i... It's now a full blown anti-government riot. The park issue was just the last straw that set it off. The original poster was telling the truth now stop arguing about shopping malls.

When I see stories like this, I'm always impressed at the wide availability of gas masks. Are we even allowed to own those in the States?* *Yes, I know how sad of a question that is.

> Are we even allowed to own those in the States?

You, as far as I gathered, and probably depending on state etc, have a constitutional right to arm yourself to the teeth; somehow, gas masks seem a bit trivial compared to rifles.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#354

Post by Jun8 » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:35 PM UTC

mda wrote: post #335

Jun8 wrote: post #330

I've been following the events since the beginning (in fact I was there at the solitary meeting in Chicago yesterday: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-local-... ), so let me summarize what's been going on. However, if you have time to read just a single post, read this ( http://technosociology.org/?p=1255 ) spot on analysis instead of my comment. First, it's not an Istanbul thing anymore, many Tu…

I read, listened hundreds of things about events, but honestly, all I see is vague hand wavy things about the real cause. "Lack of adequate response.. No official plans to celebrate May 19.. No alcohol sale after 10pm.." Seriously? I maen really?, To me this this whole mess seems to be reduced to "Hey police pepper sprayed my friend yesterday, and btw I also hate this government and PM. I am going in." reaction.

Many Turkish people interpret these as important signs, there are many more, which, when listed in isolation sound small (e.g. ban on red lipstick for Turkish Airlines female flight attendants), but when taken together and in the context of Erdogan's no-reconciliation-no-matter-what tone are quite alarming.

As for the "police sprayed my friend yesterday", it wasn't just that, the level of brutality was amazing.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#355

Post by tome » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:36 PM UTC

Tangaroa wrote: post #333

[deleted] wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

"people decide to just blow themselves up for _no_ reason" = they have established a coherent subsect of Islam which teaches that Islam requires they forever be waging war against the nonbelievers and which celebrates dying in such a war as the highest honor, giving them a very clear reason that anyone with open eyes is well aware of by now. "Jihad means war only. Fighting, with the sword." - Abdullah Azzam. "The Qur…

While we're at it, we might start to wonder why Vietnamese are not currently blowing up Americans, Indians are not currently blowing up the British, and Gabonese are not currently blowing up the French.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#356

Post by darklajid » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

nairteashop wrote: post #294

venus wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. > decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over wealth Long term, if political freedom doesn't…

It depends whether you think it is ok for the government: - to ban chewing gum - to publicly cane people (limited to "6 strokes" for women, how nice) - to enforce capital punishment (i.e. killing people for allegedly killing people) - to limit your rights to criticize your government - etc ...provided that it guarantees you good money. There is nothing inherently wrong with your point of view, and I have many friends…

I'm both curious and a little teasing here: Where do you live?

I'm talking from the perspective of a (leftist) German who wanted to relocate to Singapore (Wife said no) and lived in Tel Aviv. I've never been to the States, because quite frankly I feel the trip would cost me more 'freedom' than I'm comfortable to part with.

Note that I comment on things I know only online/through the news/from talks with friends. That said, I wonder how many critics of Singapore have actually stayed there for some time..

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#357

Post by sampo » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

AlphaSquared wrote: post #231

A friend of mine who's currently honeymooning in Istanbul says the riots are mostly regarding the laws against the sale and use of alcohol........ Him and his wife were caught in the midst of a riot and teargassed. They saw tons of public urination and most of the protestors are 25 or younger and drunk + smashing beer glasses all over...

Here is video of very well-behaved protesters from a Turkish inland city, Eskişehir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enHoMtf_2g8

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#358

Post by berkay » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:49 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #215

berkay wrote: post #178

One of the more hackernews relevant aspects of this event is the role of the media. Turkey has a very robust media, with dozens of TV stations and newspapers, yet there are no laws preventing the media from participating other commercial activities, or owning both newspapers and TV stations, etc. In fact, most of the media is owned by large corporations. Add to this the large role the government plays in the economy,…

Turkey does not (currently) have a robust media. It has a very high rate of incarceration of journalists.

Not really what I refer to by robust media. I'd say 200+ private TV stations, hundreds of radio stations, 40+ national daily papers qualify to call it "robust". IMO high number of incarcerated journalists is more reflection on the government that ,though democratically elected, does not seem to understand you can't really have democracy without respecting individual rights and freedoms.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#359

Post by code51 » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:52 PM UTC

saurabhnanda wrote: post #180

Why don't people identify the policemen and make their social life (outside of their police duty) a living hell. Bully their kids in school, boycott their spouses, refuse to do any kind of business with them (no groceries, no milk, etc.) At some point people have to be held personally responsible for their wrong doings. They shouldn't be absolved of personal responsibility just because they're in the police force, wh…

Did their children do any wrong? Since when did you start to punish other people instead? You'll also want to "mark their houses" at some point...

Please think before you write such things. That's not outright hate speech but it sure leads to hateful actions.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#360

Post by onurcel » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 9:53 PM UTC

spcs wrote: post #285

This was a posted by a friend on Facebook: Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP. Turk…

Well, I won't try to give every anti-democratical actions of Erdogan : HN comment post limit may be exceeded.

Maybe those two links might help to understand the vision of "democracy" of Erdogan :

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4387396,00.html

http://www.quora.com/Turkey-country/How-can-the-Turkish-publ...