Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons • Hacker News Board

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#181

Post by apalmer » Fri, May 31, 2013, 8:48 PM UTC

_account wrote: post #110

rthomas6 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this view not presuppose that the exhibitors of the anti-social behavior cannot be fixed or remade into useful members of society? If you believe that, fine, but if you think that some could be reformed, why is that not worth the money? "Reform", in my mind, has nothing to do with pampering. It could be even more torturous than now...For example A Clockwork Orange. Not that I'm advocating that. Does this view al…

I suppose that good people can make a[singular and non-violent] mistake or error in judgement which can run them a foul of the law. These people don't require reform. They are typically leaniently sentenced, pay for their mistake and move on. I also suppose that others are more habitually and fundamentally anti-social. These people are not worth the effort of trying to 'save'. The brains have literally been wired for…

I dont necessarily agree with your moral standpoints however the statement "They are typically leaniently sentenced, pay for their mistake and move on.", this is not typically the case... there are plenty of people who receive light sentences and plenty who get the book thrown at them for non violent first time offenses

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#182

Post by gruseom » Fri, May 31, 2013, 9:05 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #138

gruseom wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like waterboarding, but also not. Waterboarding was always obviously torture. No fair-minded person would ever have said that it wasn't; the suggestion is a joke. Thus the only people who had reason to say otherwise were ideologues, power-wielders, and bootlicking journalists. Solitary confinement isn't like that, and it has taken time for fair-minded people to see it in this light. The fact that the science on it is…

Don't forget to include cowards in your list. Many people justifying waterboarding as "not torture" are simply vastly, deeply afraid of terrorism and are willing to justify terrible things so they can feel safe.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I also should probably not have used such charged language on HN to begin with. It never does any good.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#183

Post by sliverstorm » Fri, May 31, 2013, 9:07 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #164

rdl wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are structures that make up our society that were not creations of kings? (i.e. things created in the last hundred or two years, under democracy). Are these any less difficult to change? Fiat-money Central Banks mostly were created under democracies, and seem quite resistant to change. Social-welfare programs. Anything related to lobbying. I think the razor points to "institutions are highly resistant to change"…

I don't think moxie is suggesting that they are durable because of their origin, but something more along the lines of what you're saying. I think the point is that they aren't the sort of thing a modern democracy would come up with on its own, but they're very hard to get rid of once you've allowed them in. (Not meaning to put words in anyone's mouth — just offering the thought the way my brain processed it.)

Maybe I've just been wholly indoctrinated, but I don't see how laws are the sort of thing that wouldn't have been created. From what I can tell, any group of humans stuck together for a time comes up with rules, and laws are simply the codification of these rules.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#184

Post by roc » Fri, May 31, 2013, 9:09 PM UTC

lars wrote: post #177

roc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Our prison system is probably near the top of that list," If by "our" you mean "the US" then I'm already of the mind that it's bizarre and barbaric and I doubt I'm alone. In many ways it strikes me as suffering from problems similar to those in our older (now largely dismantled) system of insane asylums. Both sought to address a very serious problem, for which we only have flawed solutions to choose from. And whil…

> And while we don't have proven-better alternatives for many of the problems that arise Oh please. The US has a recidivism rate within 3 years of 67.5%. Norway has a recidivism rate of 20% within 2 years. There are proven-better alternatives, but your society has decided not to implement them.

> "There are proven-better alternatives"

Some of them, yes. Which is what I said.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#185

Post by crazy1van » Fri, May 31, 2013, 9:17 PM UTC

Well, we in the US have made just about everything a crime, so it's no wonder that we have a ton of people in jail. Gone are the days when people didn't need to consult a team of lawyers to stay compliant with the law...they just instinctively knew that things like stealing and murder were illegal.

With so many startups and entrepreneurs here on HN, I bet tons of you have violated laws for taxes, banking, employment, or zoning at one time or another and you probably had no idea.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#186

Post by xenophanes » Fri, May 31, 2013, 9:27 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

> People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs.

I agree except that I don't consider our prison and drug policies "normal" or acceptable. And a significant amount of people don't consider them normal. I think, for more in the spirit of that question, it's interesting to consider what 95+% consider normal that in the future 95+% will consider barbaric. Something like that.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#187

Post by learc83 » Fri, May 31, 2013, 9:36 PM UTC

sukuriant wrote: post #154

mcherm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know plenty of unmotivated individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free. Don't you? No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that. > It has to strike on…

> No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that. Have you seen The Green Mile? I think that's the name of the movie, where the lead character contemplating committing a crime just so life would be easier again. Some peopl…

I think you're thinking of The Shawshank Redemption.

Also the character only says that because he's been in prison for most of his life and he's so old when he gets out that he doesn't know how to function outside of prison.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#188

Post by dasil003 » Fri, May 31, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

lars wrote: post #177

roc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Our prison system is probably near the top of that list," If by "our" you mean "the US" then I'm already of the mind that it's bizarre and barbaric and I doubt I'm alone. In many ways it strikes me as suffering from problems similar to those in our older (now largely dismantled) system of insane asylums. Both sought to address a very serious problem, for which we only have flawed solutions to choose from. And whil…

> And while we don't have proven-better alternatives for many of the problems that arise Oh please. The US has a recidivism rate within 3 years of 67.5%. Norway has a recidivism rate of 20% within 2 years. There are proven-better alternatives, but your society has decided not to implement them.

You can't compare recidivism rates between a 300M nation of immigrants a 5M nation with an extremely homogenous culture. The US has social problems that are worse than Norway's worst nightmares. Prisons are just the tip of the iceberg.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#189

Post by ericd » Fri, May 31, 2013, 10:02 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #167

Camillo wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is.

If you are going to level an accusation like 'the majority of Americans think prisoner-on-prisoner rape is a-ok', then the burden of proof is on you. I won't even say that nobody thinks that way, I just want proof that this is the prevailing mindset.

It's pretty easy to see that if there's not acceptance, there's at least almost complete apathy. There hasn't exactly been many widespread calls for better conditions in our prisons, and in day to day life, I've never heard anyone suggest it.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#190

Post by sukuriant » Fri, May 31, 2013, 10:52 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #187

sukuriant wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that. Have you seen The Green Mile? I think that's the name of the movie, where the lead character contemplating committing a crime just so life would be easier again. Some peopl…

I think you're thinking of The Shawshank Redemption . Also the character only says that because he's been in prison for most of his life and he's so old when he gets out that he doesn't know how to function outside of prison.

<_< you're right. It's been a long while since I've seen even a part of that movie. Honestly, I don't know if I've ever seen the whole movie; but, I do remember that part.