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Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

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Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#171

Post by Karunamon »

skrebbel wrote: post #169
Karunamon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocating what amounts to rape and torture just because we don't break it into its components (it's tacitly accepted, after all) is utterly abhorrent and deserves every step closer to invisible that it's getting.

Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions? Come on, it's not that extreme, he's supporting the status quo. It's not like he's saying that all should be killed. For comparison's sake, I once wrote here that "the Israeli government are a bunch of nazis" (and I'm still ashamed of that), and I got fewer downvotes (which doesn't make any sense at all, it was a horrible and worthless…

>Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions?

Nobody's stopping anybody from spreading their opinion, last I checked. I said the downvotes were deserved.

Not only for being factually incorrect, ("Prison has to be scary", which is the whole premise of the post, is handily disproved by looking at some of the Nordic nations' systems), but for perpetuating the kind of culture that allows solitary confinement (i.e. psychological torture) and prison rape to be accepted by otherwise sane and caring people.

The culture of "whatever happens to guys in prison is their own fault" NEEDS to stop.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#172

Post by Houshalter »

EliRivers wrote: post #25
Houshalter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main purpose of prison is to act as a disincentive. A lot of people don't commit crimes in the first place because they are scared of going to prison.

The evidence appears to indicate that it's far less effective as a disincentive than people hope. For prison to work as a disincentive, people need to be capable of making sensible decisions about what to do NOW in order to create a better distant future. They often aren't. Criminals are often people who do very badly at this. They don't want to be in prison twenty years from now, but it's not going to affect how the…

How can you know how many people don't commit crimes because they fear prison? Yes the people who currently are in prison are the ones who didn't think they would get caught, but there are people who are not in prison because they did consider that.

Yes there are cheaper and more effective disincentives, but you're right it is a cultural thing. Our culture considers those barbaric (but not prison somehow.)

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#173

Post by skrebbel »

Karunamon wrote: post #171
skrebbel wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions? Come on, it's not that extreme, he's supporting the status quo. It's not like he's saying that all should be killed. For comparison's sake, I once wrote here that "the Israeli government are a bunch of nazis" (and I'm still ashamed of that), and I got fewer downvotes (which doesn't make any sense at all, it was a horrible and worthless…

>Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions? Nobody's stopping anybody from spreading their opinion, last I checked. I said the downvotes were deserved. Not only for being factually incorrect, ("Prison has to be scary", which is the whole premise of the post, is handily disproved by looking at some of the Nordic nations' systems), but for perpetuating the kind of culture that al…

> Nobody's stopping anybody from spreading their opinion, last I checked. I said the downvotes were deserved.

directly contradicts

> [it] deserves every step closer to invisible that it's getting

from your previous comment.

Also, you know that downvoting something enough hides it from HN. On HN, a downvote doesn't mean "I disagree", because we have comments for that. A downvote means "this comment isn't HN-worthy".

As for the actual discussion topic, I mostly agree with you and I don't understand why you're discussing it with me. I'm defending another's right to disagree with you and me.

> The culture of "whatever happens to guys in prison is their own fault" NEEDS to stop.

I agree, but I'm appalled that you think you can enforce a culture change by hiding the opinions of people that don't want that culture change. You can't shove culture down people's throats.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#174

Post by Houshalter »

alan_cx wrote: post #45
Houshalter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main purpose of prison is to act as a disincentive. A lot of people don't commit crimes in the first place because they are scared of going to prison.

Clearly doesn't work then does it? One of the highest prison populations in the world. If it were a deterrent, people wouldn't commit crimes that get them in prison, would they? Either its no deterrent, or Americans are the most criminal in the world.

You don't see the people that aren't in prison because they do see it as a disincentive. America doesn't have the highest crime rate in the world either, we simply catch more criminals and have vastly expanded the number of things that qualify as crimes, as well as lengthened sentences.

We might have more crime than other first world countries in general, but it's not like prisons are the cause of it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Besides, what are you comparing it to? All other countries use prisons as well, and what would the alternative be anyways?

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#175

Post by Houshalter »

Someone wrote: post #59
Houshalter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main purpose of prison is to act as a disincentive. A lot of people don't commit crimes in the first place because they are scared of going to prison.

Similarly, would you claim that the main purpose of solitary is to act as a disincentive? If so, it clearly works as effectively as prison does in keeping people out of it. If you want either to work as a disincentive, you first must make people be in control of whether they enter that next state of hell. This article clearly shows that prisoners aren't; they can just get sent to solitary (for decades!) because the w…

How does it not work? How many people don't commit crimes to avoid prison, and how many prisoners behave to avoid solitary? Of course decades of solitary confinement for standing up to guards is absolutely ridiculous, but the general principle that people avoid the threat of punishment still stands.

I still have sympathy for (most) people that commit crimes, and I think it'd be inhuman not to. That's why we don't have the death penalty for all crimes, regardless how effective a deterrent that would be.

On the other hand, if you know the consequence of committing a crime and decide to commit it anyways, I don't have as much sympathy. You can't say that people have no choice whatsoever. Just because you grew up in a poor neighborhood doesn't make committing crimes ok.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#176

Post by apalmer »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #34
Mordor wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the real hell is being left alone.

I tried both in my life and being left alone is so much better than forced to be with other random hostile people.

you do not really have a true concept of what solitary confinement really means. You are viewing solitary confinement like alone time. Human nature is such that most human beings do not psychologically deal well with being deprived of all human contact for extended periods of time. Some humans can do fine with solitary but it is a very very small percentage.

I do know someone who did go to prison and basically was a slim straight haired indian prettyboy teenager in american jail... his approach was from the first day he entered prison he immediately attacked the first person he saw, went to solitary got out immediately attacked the first person he saw, did that for about 3-6 months... eventually he was so nuts he joined a gang, he liked the gang life better than the solitary

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#177

Post by lars »

roc wrote: post #108
InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

> "Our prison system is probably near the top of that list," If by "our" you mean "the US" then I'm already of the mind that it's bizarre and barbaric and I doubt I'm alone. In many ways it strikes me as suffering from problems similar to those in our older (now largely dismantled) system of insane asylums. Both sought to address a very serious problem, for which we only have flawed solutions to choose from. And whil…

> And while we don't have proven-better alternatives for many of the problems that arise

Oh please. The US has a recidivism rate within 3 years of 67.5%. Norway has a recidivism rate of 20% within 2 years. There are proven-better alternatives, but your society has decided not to implement them.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#178

Post by gangst »

_account wrote: post #93

Prison is society's recourse for anti-social behavior. Does it have to be a violent and horrible place? No. The residents tend to make it that. In addition, I am against pampering in anyway, with my tax dollars, people whom I've had to remove from proper society...for anti-social behavior. Prison is supposed to be a deterrent. My biggest gripe is that I have to pay for it at all. I support banishment or death.

Your use of declarative and profound statements, with no evidence, gives me a high degree of distrust towards anything you say.

With that said, I have a few specific points.

> Prison is society's recourse for anti-social behavior

Lets speak objectively. Prison is a punishment that is forced upon some people who are found guilty of breaking some law. Many laws exist without thought for "social" behavior.

> Does it have to be a violent and horrible place? No. The residents tend to make it that.

Some residents make it that. Other residents have little to no "social" means of preventing or defending themselves against it.

> I am against pampering in anyway, with my tax dollars, people whom I've had to remove from proper society...for anti-social behavior.

Its funny that you use the word "pampering" when the alternative we are discussing is torture.

Nonetheless, this is the easiest point at which I can find common ground with you. Would you, rather than pay with your tax dollars for "pampering" prisoners, pay for educating prisoners so that our GDP grows? If there were ways to measure that GDP increased because we educated and enabled certain prisoners, would you gripe less?

> Prison is supposed to be a deterrent.

I've always heard that its supposed to be for rehabilitation. But, again, lets speak to the reality rather than the ideal: Prison is obviously not an effective deterrent.

> These people don't require reform. They are typically leaniently sentenced, pay for their mistake and move on.

What evidence do you have that people who don't need reform are typically leniently sentenced?

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#179

Post by jessedhillon »

gknoy wrote: post #148
freehunter wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because prison population is rising does not mean that people are choosing to go to prison. The criminal justice system is choosing to send more and more people to prison for offenses that would not have incurred prison time in the past.

More importantly, the people that do the Very Bad Things that we want prison to deter often do not think enough about their actions to consider the possible consequences, and also don't really think that it could happen to them. When people don't even think consequences will ever apply to them, how can the consequence act as a deterrent?

What are the sources of these assertions? This seems like sheer speculation, or common-sensical reasoning -- do you know anyone from prison? Have you conducted some kind of psychological survey of prisoners?

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#180

Post by john_b »

moxie wrote: post #140

Many of the structures that make up our society (jails, taxes, laws, rulers) were not "our" creation, but the creation of kings. When those kings were deposed, rather than abolishing the structures those kings had created, they were instead largely preserved and put under "democratic" control. It could be that this was a mistake: that there's something structurally intrinsic to the instruments of monarchies that can…

In some ways the prison system in the U.S. seems to be worse precisely because it is supported by a democratic society. If prisoners are tortured under a king, their barbaric treatment can easily be associated with the cruelty of the king. This connection creates a risk of revolt, and a sensible king will be mindful of it.

In a democratic society with a Kafkaesque prison system, torture of prisoners is not as easily associated with any one person's cruelty. Because most people are optimistic and don't like to believe that several hundred million of their neighbors would silently condone the torture of a whole class of people, it's easy for lazy minds to consider prisoner torture acceptable, necessary, justified, and so on to whatever stronger beliefs these individuals may hold.

I'm not saying that prisoners would fare any better in a non-democratic society, but how people think of prisoner mistreatment would definitely be different.

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