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Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

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Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#131

Too depressing to read in its entirety. One straightforward way of evaluating whether there might be anything wrong with practices in American prisons is to compare with other countries -- do other nations with stable democracies use solitary confinement in a similar way?

> do other nations with stable democracies use solitary confinement in a similar way Other countries with stable democracies have universal health care, don't incarcerate almost 1% of the population, have never landed people on the moon, don't spend 5% of their GDP on the military, aren't the home of Apple, Microsoft, and IBM, and so on. America has always been (and will probably always be) an edge case.

I am not sure I fully understand what you mean but it seems to imply that US is an outlier in both 'good' and 'bad'.

What seems to be problematic to me is that the bad ones seem to be on different abstraction level than the good ones. Other countries might not have Apple, Microsoft, and IBM but they certainly have huge globally successful companies. They never landed on the moon but they have explored space and achieved important things related to science or technology.

Which could negate the idea of being an outlier in bad things is somehow related to being an outlier in good things... if anyone would be making such claim.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#132
post #3
post #2

Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities.

Like waterboarding?

Like waterboarding, but also not.

Waterboarding was always obviously torture. No fair-minded person would ever have said that it wasn't; the suggestion is a joke. Thus the only people who had reason to say otherwise were ideologues, power-wielders, and bootlicking journalists.

Solitary confinement isn't like that, and it has taken time for fair-minded people to see it in this light. The fact that the science on it is so unequivocal is a big part of this coming into (some) people's awareness, as well. That's why I said "now so obviously a form of torture". It wasn't obvious before.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do other nations with stable democracies use solitary confinement in a similar way Other countries with stable democracies have universal health care, don't incarcerate almost 1% of the population, have never landed people on the moon, don't spend 5% of their GDP on the military, aren't the home of Apple, Microsoft, and IBM, and so on. America has always been (and will probably always be) an edge case.

Actually, all nations think they are special. It's not an excuse for backwardness.

OT: I remember being in the USA after those 9/11 terrorist attacks an they aired those "proud to be an American" commercials all the time... like they assume it's a good thing to be proud that you are a national of a certain nation. And maybe it is a good thing - I don't know. It just seemed strange to me. And all those American flags in front of regular family homes... do you still have those? You don't see that in Europe.

Please do not take this the wrong way. I kind of admire your patriotism... although I think it might prevent you from seeing (and fixing) bad things.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#134
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many problems with the US Justice System, but those standards are impossible for any country to meet.

Norway and Sweden don't seem too bad.

That might be the case, but what is right and fair are incredibly subjective and constantly changing.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you get your information from, but the source is unreliable and you're now spreading disinformation.

Please explain. My source is someone I know who was imprisoned in Aachen, NRW.

Reading up a bit, I note that it does happen, but under specific circumstances. It certainly isn't common practice. In Germany people in prison are usually encouraged to have a job and most work fairly regular work weeks, when not following courses. Rehabilitation and reintegration into society is taken seriously there.

See e.g. http://www.internationalpenalandpenitentiaryfoundation.org/S... Germany.pdf. An excerpt from the section on Prison regime(s):

  The  common  core  of  regime  activities  is  a  Monday  to  Friday  work  week. 
  Work hours follow those of the civil service. In addition there is the one hour 
  of daily exercise in the open air. Prisoners are walked to their work places af‐
  ter breakfast, they are returned to their cells for lunch and at the end of their 
  work  hours.  Here  the  uniformity  ends.  Regulations  with  respect  to  night‐
  time  lockup  differ  widely.  In  pretrial  prisons,  where  most  prisoners  do  not 
  work,  prisoners  may  be  locked  up  for  23  hours  a  day.  Many  prisons  have 
  adopted  a  policy  of  open  cell  doors  between  the  end  of  work  and  lockup 
  time. After lockup, leisure‐time activities outside the cell rooms may still be 
  possible.  But  this  depends  on  the  prisoner’s  enrolment  in  one  of  the  organ‐
  ized activities offered by prison staff or (more likely) by some external group 
  (from  Alcoholics  Anonymus  to  political  parties,  religious  groups  et  cetera). 
  But all of this may not apply to all prisoners and it definitely does not apply 
  to all prisons.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#136
post #127
post #71

I think I'd rather spend 3 years in solitary (given adequate books, ability to write, etc.) than in general prison population. I accept that I'm probably an outlier, though.

What's the longest time you've actually gone in your life without seeing another human? I've done 10-12 days a few times, and routinely do ~5 days. You need to experience it for yourself before you make such bold claims. It's a very intense experience.

9-10 days without Internet a couple times. A week or so at a time with internet, routinely, most of the time for a few years. 6 months where the only person was seen about as much as a prison guard at pelican bay would be, and another year which was quite close to that, and where I effectively couldn't leave.

I agree it's intense, but not exclusively bad. And I'm pretty sure I'd prefer it by far to being in prison with contact with inmates and COs.

There are a lot of people who have spent weeks/months solo in pursuits like sailing. It clearly isn't just the isolation of solitary which is a problem; it's probably more to do with 1) the type of people sent there and 2) the lack of control over one's own destiny. People who require "social interaction", put in a new/stressful situation against their will, etc. are a lot more likely to suffer from it than people who aren't particularly social and are solitary voluntarily and in a non-stressful setting.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#137

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

Why bother with prison at all, if that's your attitude? Just execute all lawbreakers and be done with it.

The answer is that not all crimes are created equal, and neither should all punishments. You can go to prison for very mundane stuff.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#138
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like waterboarding?

Like waterboarding, but also not. Waterboarding was always obviously torture. No fair-minded person would ever have said that it wasn't; the suggestion is a joke. Thus the only people who had reason to say otherwise were ideologues, power-wielders, and bootlicking journalists. Solitary confinement isn't like that, and it has taken time for fair-minded people to see it in this light. The fact that the science on it is…

Don't forget to include cowards in your list. Many people justifying waterboarding as "not torture" are simply vastly, deeply afraid of terrorism and are willing to justify terrible things so they can feel safe.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#139
post #107
post #2

Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities.

> Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities. There might be some ethnocentrism here... I might be wrong but it seems to me like you make an assumption about this generation that is only valid in US. I live in Europe and when I think about people I know, there is nothing cont…

After a bit of research, I believe this also may be an ethnocentric view, it seems solitary confinement is only banned in Europe and still used in many other places (including the very liberal Canada).

Even the UN has only made it torture if it's some But that being said, I'm all for ending it. Or ending most imprisonment and moving towards restorative justice.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#140
Many of the structures that make up our society (jails, taxes, laws, rulers) were not "our" creation, but the creation of kings.

When those kings were deposed, rather than abolishing the structures those kings had created, they were instead largely preserved and put under "democratic" control.

It could be that this was a mistake: that there's something structurally intrinsic to the instruments of monarchies that can not be eradicated, regardless of who nominally controls them. ACAB.

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