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Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

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Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#81

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

> Prison has to be scary.

No it doesn't. The problem with chest-thumping-ego-driven-bullshit like this is that it is very fact-adverse and causes more problems than it solves. Your type of prison is nothing more than a gang training camp.

Start here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=rehabilitation+vs+punishment...

And don't stop until about page 200ish.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#82

A very sad read and the comments are even worse. This sort of thing so clearly crosses the line in to inhumanity. I appreciate that some/many of these inmates have committed awful crimes but it seems that this particular system offers no opportunity for rehabilitation and is focussed solely on punishment. I forget where I read it but I believe that there is a correlation between the severity of the punishment and it'…

It's not about rehabilitation or punishment. It's far more cynical than that. It's simply a matter of separating people from the population. Prisoners are separated from the free population; especially dangerous prisoners are separated even from the prison population.

It's also about preventing incarceration problems which have happened before. Like stupid warning signs proliferating on common products (I recall counting 18 warning signs on a bus door), solitary confinement cells are the result of solving problems with highly motivated, creative, and dangerous people. The result is something inhumane - because too often the occupant is.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#83

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

Western European prisons, Australian prisons, Japanese prisons and prisons in other civilized, well-developed, rich countries are much nicer to stay in than American prisons and still our criminal problem isn't nearly as large as yours.

I'm not the least bit afraid of going to prison here. Still I don't break the law, for reasons better than fear of prison.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#84
post #71

I think I'd rather spend 3 years in solitary (given adequate books, ability to write, etc.) than in general prison population. I accept that I'm probably an outlier, though.

You think that, until you've spent a few months, perhaps only a week, in solitary confinement.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#85

Too depressing to read in its entirety. One straightforward way of evaluating whether there might be anything wrong with practices in American prisons is to compare with other countries -- do other nations with stable democracies use solitary confinement in a similar way?

A different view: In Germany you are usually locked up for 23 hours/day in your (1 or 2 man) cell when you're serving a prison sentence. There are some exceptions to this like being able to visit another prisoner for one hour every day or use the kitchen for one hour every few days, etc. (Or if you are really lucky you can get a job inside the prison.) I'd say being imprisoned is inhumane in every country on this pla…

I don't know where you get your information from, but the source is unreliable and you're now spreading disinformation.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#86

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

Obviously the thought of prison doesn't in fact stop people from breaking the rules. The prison population is in fact growing. Similarly many places have prisons that are very unlike the US prisons, and yet they have lower crime rates. So the evidence against the core of your argument is pretty strong.

At some point, when the punishment for minor offenses is extreme, the difference between minor offenses and major offenses gets very blurry. Extreme example: if stealing carries a punishment that is effectively the same as murder, the only logical thing to do when stealing is murder any potential witnesses. The US isn't quite this bad.

However, when the actual punishment for minor crime includes the concept of a felony record, it becomes much harder to differentiate between minor possession of drugs and say grand theft. They both carry felony record issues. That means the being convicted of either results in prison, exclusion from most of the work force for life, the inability to participate in a lot of "better yourself" programs (and really, people who messed up earlier in life should be encouraged to be in these!) and a host of other life long punishments. I understand this is a bit tangential to your point, but bear with me...

Now, when you look at the way the US justice system actually does things, you get this perception of arbitrariness or even randomness. The threat of prison is there, but there is no intuitive logic to how it works. Carrying some drugs will get you 20 guaranteed years in prison, while murdering someone will get you maybe 5, maybe 100. Raping someone will get you less time than "hacking". Racial discrepancies exist too in how prison is applied, as do wealth issues. There is parole/early release, and differences between judges and prosecutorial discretion further complicating the punishment question.

Whether or not there is good, deep, and sound defensible logic in how this works, the appearance is that there is no way of determining how you'll punished for what you're doing. As such, once the decision has been made to do something relatively harmless, the deterrent effect of prison no longer applies. The rational choice is "punishment, when it happens, could be anything", therefore the game is no about deciding actions based on punishment, it is deciding actions based on getting caught. Any action, no matter how severe, that lessens your chance of getting caught is better than a less severe action which doesn't modify or worsens the chance of conviction.

Basically my point is that when you want to use prisons to deter bad behavior, you better make it obvious that their application is something that can be reasoned about. As it stands, prison can't be included in any reasoning about consequences, except in an overly simplistic binary matter that has no effect at curbing any behavior once it is on the table.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#88
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you fail to grasp what solitary actually means in the prison tense. It's not a few hours of sitting on the floor meditating. It is 1 hour of sunlight, you don't go anywhere, there are no computers. I used to think like that when I was younger, "going to prison getting raped?! I'll take solitary." Then someone that was released spoke at our college about what solitary really meant. I'll take my chances with th…

Well, do you get books? I think books can get you a long way. The prison system we have around the world stimulates creating "professional" criminals by placing criminals among themselves. If we to break this cycle, we should get everyone a prison cell without inmates but with a window and books they can read.

Why even bother with books and solitary. Just flash freeze them like in Demolition Man. The prison system doesn't stimulate anyone. Crimes are primarily committed because of motive, opportunity, and/or mental illness. Poverty is a great motivator. If you're an ex-convict your opportunity to get a respectable job drops precipitously, to be a drug dealer requires no prior experience and no background check.

I'm not concerned about the prison system. They are the means to the end. What does bother me is the US justice system. They convict more people than any other country on the planet. Prison can't be a deterrent if you have overzealous prosecutors searching for me people to convict.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#89
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

> Prison has to be scary. No it doesn't. The problem with chest-thumping-ego-driven-bullshit like this is that it is very fact-adverse and causes more problems than it solves. Your type of prison is nothing more than a gang training camp. Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=rehabilitation+vs+punishment... And don't stop until about page 200ish.

Are you referring to a particular article or 200 pages of search results?

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#90
post #64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom. Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil to punish people w…

> If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom. 1. Prisons as correctional center far outweighs some homeless guy pick-pocketin…

>fixing the root problem in the criminals

The root problem is the xenophobia of old white men.

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

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